Navigating the Entrepreneurial Landscape

So when I have those conversations, I ensure that even in the first few sessions and the first initial conversations, I really probe and understand exactly what they're trying to achieve. It's one thing to say, okay, well, the platform's going to do this, but what's your overall, but how do we align that with the technical stuff and the process stuff? And often, like I said, there's a thin layer on the top that other partners, you know, will will speak to, but really at the end of the day, all they're doing is putting a shine on top of the platform. We differentiate is the layer that sits in between the platform and the process because it's one thing to go in and do a technical implementation, but if it doesn't align and doesn't improve or uplift their process, what are you doing?

You know, it's not going to work. I've seen I've seen where customers have spent millions and millions of dollars. This is a literal example literal millions of dollars. My time in big four has taught me and and shown me that there's more to it than just a technical aspect. And so that's what we bring at our boutique level. So all the big four can do it, but there's not many partners in our space that actually can advise as well as implement. true transformation and true uplift I will say requires a lot of um yeah trust building in the beginning and demonstration that you actually understand what that means

running a business can feel lonely especially when the decisions get heavy welcome to CEO Rispro by Sora Jane practical insights from the boardroom and the meditation cushion I'm sorry I've done 10,000 hours in three major parts of my life I spent 10,000 hours being a CEO 10,000 hours being a board member and 10,000 hours meditating. What we're going to do in each episode is really unpack a real business challenge that a CEO is facing and see if we can work through it together. Enjoy.

Good day guys. S here whisper. Today I've got MV from Aur. MV, you want to tell us a bit about yourself?

Sure. So I am a uh ITSM and technology practitioner. have been in the industry for coming out to show my age couple years. Uh within that time frame, I've been in the service now space and for those that don't know service now is a SAS platform basically taking you know manual processes across organizations and automating it so big now. I mean I could spend the next hour or so telling you what but it does your ITM HR sec whole bunch of stuff and so I've been in that industry for quite a while now uh previous to starting a jurro I was at for a couple of years where I built out this so now practice and then thought you know big love for him and so I've jump ship and started and haven't looked back since.

And how's the journey been you know over the last while?

Interesting.

Very very interesting. Um, you know, it it's never linear. A lot of ups, lot of down, a lot of downs. And, um, you know, it's it's just something that um, you know, you're constantly learning and also, you know, constantly having to figure out. So, it's been Yeah, it's been fun for the most part.

Yeah. So, the way we do this podcast is we try to pick a business problem that you're currently facing. We talk through workshop that together. So, what's something that's top of mind for you now?

Yeah. for me and it's based on like the question around that you know the journey and and you know going and starting a business and and the rest of it it's really about you know you wear multiple hats as a founder um as a as a CEO just in general and I've throughout my journey I've really struggled with kind of everything and also being okay with not being able to do stuff right because you feel like in your responsibilities and everything's on your shoulders and know one of the key things to to specifically call it out a lot of sales right so you know going in and starting a business that's definitely you know you know I'm a tech person I get the platform I've been I lot lot of years um you know I've built out practices but that was one of the key things I really really really struggled with um because I've never done it right in essence and so recognizing that and accepting was a big thing because you know you want to do great and everything.

It's your baby's business and you just keep at it, keep at it, keep at it. And I came to realize actually there's the gap. That's the gap. Sales is the gap. But there's other things there that you know you're the best at, but you're able to, like I said, figure it out. But sales is so specific and it's so organic and it's so um it's I I feel there's an art to sales. Yeah.

Right. you either sells or not sells instead. Yeah, it's

true. There's probably two parts to what you said. It's like how do you let let go of certain things? Yes.

And then how do you fill the gap if sales is not a health thing? Which of those two are more top of mind for you?

Um it's it's more so it's a bit of both to be honest with you, but also filling the gap. More so going okay well how do I solve this problem? because identifying it is you know half the problem um half the step sorry but then going okay well we know that got this problem how do we fix it and how do I know that it's fixed well if I'm not a domain specialist how do I know other than okay numbers are great and people revenue and the rest of them but are the right sales person for the organization or even saying sales are the right CFO right HR yeah

um because you rely on the right they're they're the ones that meant to be driving that key part of the business and going advising and hey this is how we do it and often what I felt you know in the beginning is you you rely on a lot of people and the expectations aren't always aligned um because you know they have their experience they have their ways of doing things and and the rest of it and if you if you don't fully understand the nuances of what they're doing It's hard to say it's successful, but it's also hard to say it's not successful.

Yeah.

Because I've noticed and not to jump around, I've noticed that a lot of people say take the marketing domain. If you don't get marketing, it can it can seem like there's nothing happening. Where's the ROI? Where's the impact and the rest of it, but that's making a difference. But if you don't know, it doesn't seem like it. Yeah.

So it's that same sort of mindset you know understanding that it is working or also having the the the trust to go okay well maybe it's not or trusting yourself it's

and and are you at the stage where you're ready to recruit yourself personally.

Yeah absolutely absolutely. So you know the where we're at is a very exciting you know phase and stage of the company. um you know we've been operated for almost 5 years now and we're getting to the next level of true so you know we've been out of start for a while and you know in that early scale up stage but you know one of my goals has been to expand um overseas and the the dream of my oh sorry it's always been the US I think might get spoken about that in the past and what has happened is that we've organically had success in the UK and so for For me it's like well you can't ignore when you success there's no sh us and the rest of it but that's the impact and so the UK is the next step and so to answer your question I am practically so so now you're looking for a sales the question you know how do I make sure I get the right and then how do I manage it right that's how do I get the right sales in

y

and then what does that instrument look like

yeah to your question back to the of your question and to the to the point is making is like well I've never managed direct to those people before.

Yeah.

What do they need?

You know what are their expectations? Um you know are you setting them up for success?

Yep.

Because it's well and good selling you never sold anything but you never get together. You know what I mean? Like

they have to get what they need to be able to perform with their business.

Yeah. Well I mean tell us a bit more about like what do you offer? Like what do you offer clients? Why do people buy you today?

Absolutely. So in within the service now ecosystem you know um every partner offers professional services right and every every partner with their salt can go in and implement service now from breakfields where we differentiate is the layer that sits in between the platform and the process because it's one thing to go in and do a technical implementation but if it doesn't align and doesn't improve or uplift their processes um what are you doing? You know, it's not going to work. I've seen previousies. I've seen where customers have spent millions and millions of dollars. This is a literal literal millions of dollars. They went live and the team were not using them. We cut off it doesn't work and they're like, "Wow." So, I've seen up front and in person the effects of not ensuring that there's that translation way.

So my time in big four has taught me and and shown me that there's more to it than just a technical aspect. And so that's what we bring at our boutique level. So all the big four can do it, but there's not many partners in our space that actually can advise as well as implement. So that's the business processes and the that kind of makes sense.

Um and how do you do that? Do you quickly start? Do you do that remotely and stuff? It's a bit and and that's and that's a really good point because when we started there weren't too many actual partners that owned their own offshoring company that were like contracting to contract to contract we have a India that's part of the owner of that company in India and so we own the outcomes we our employees best practices frameworks all that sort of stuff so we have the engagement lay so we'll have people in office if needed you know we got BAS we got project managers architects and the rest of it and then all they the thing all the technical stuff is driving offshore.

Now some customers are they're happy with that because what that does we can aggressively be um you know very very specific with our commercials of course some customers because the data federation rest they have to have on which we can we can do as well I've got um so you know the UK back to UK I've got a developer in the UK but architect in the UK as well and then I've got a bunch of um junior developers in the US where you know we're training off and getting ready from the expansion

and then all the they tend to be on-site at client sites. today like that your office or both stores

bit of a and then you know obviously with the whole you know shaved up with co a lot of customers are still preferring virtual even though I mean and I like being first I like going and having these workshops and and white the rest of it like no we're fine we could do virtual even you know we're in Australia but um you know some customers like well you know we'll we'll do some parts in office and then we'll do some parts in so it's a bit of a and so when you sell. So you'll tell hey do the technical side business process mapping re-engineering

what I change bit of training

um

how the clients receive that is that like a no-brainer for them so basically every says that

yeah they do more technical side and not the other side

absolutely so it's really about those initial conversations and establishing the trust and capability that you can do it because you're absolutely right a lot of it oh yeah we'll do this we'll map the process we'll do this in this and that. But customers that actually understand their problems will look at those conversations and go, "Well, I'll take this. I can I can see that you're only going to go to this level because the things that you're saying are very superficial." So when I have those conversations, I ensure that even in the first, you know, I do speak a little, but even in the first few sessions and the first initial conversations, I really probe and understand exactly what they're trying to achieve because it's one thing to say, okay, well, the platform's going to do this, but what's your overall goal and how do we align that with the technical stuff and the process stuff?

And often, like I said, there's a thin layer on the top that other partners, you know, will will speak to, but really at the end of the day, all they're doing is putting a shine on top of the platform because, you know, that's fine. Some customers just want that. Some customer, hey, use the platform. That's cool, you know, but um Exactly. true transformation and true uplift I will say requires a lot of um yeah trust building in the beginning and demonstration that you actually understand what that means a lot of the key things too I'll just add to that uh is that one of my I feel critical parts of success for athletic transformation is people people people because at the end of the day you're taking something that someone has been doing for 15 years and you'll change their whole way of working and so really getting to that layer and and unpacking what that means, you know, um and making sure that that organizational change management is all part of it.

Those conversations there really give the customer a different perspective. Okay. Well, and there's a difference.

Yeah.

You know, okay. But tell me a bit about your sales process. Like today, for example, the last client signed up or even more recent one.

Talk me through what happened from start to finish or what generally happens.

Yeah. So I'll generally right now there's a debt I'm the only person doing

I'm doing everything. Um I'm very very fortunate that Service Now supports us in terms of their a executive. So they'll have a customer that will either be in the initial conversations of hey we want service now um or hey we've got this new module or we have this problem on the platform. So if it aligns with who we are as a company and and uh hopeful fit they'll call me up can you join this call that's for these multiple partners they just have one part of for business.

So it's really good question for these new green fields it's it is their process and they have to follow they have to introduce that's standard regardless of how you know whatever their situation is. So they'll introduce 35 minutes. The customer may initially just go I just want to talk to that's it or I go I want to talk to all three and we'll move on.

So the customer already start to buy the tech at this stage or they still the value

bit of both. So we get brought in sometimes early before like just as the hey we're looking at Microsoft we're looking at XY Z and and S now how does it work and we take them through that they don't even they've never seen Service Now before they just

why is Service Now pulling into that wouldn't they do that themselves wouldn't they be more fit to do that themselves

it depends on what the customer needs and that's a really good point so there's a lot of customers that are very tactical and just at that point they're just I just want to see I just want to see and I don't care about anything else. there's other customers that you know that need that depth and so that's why they'll bring someone like me so I can give them the full picture because again that customer is not just looking at a point solution how do them transform the way that we do this either across the organization or in HR

yeah so and how service and how pick you guys up there hundreds of

there's a lot yeah

um besides you know being top of mind the account which I'm sure super important

yeah um

like what scenario what what happens in the client's world to make them think oh break it to your is the right part is called sort of what I've been told right is a lot of the times we've been successful with customers based on cultural fit which I find so interesting

what do you mean by cultural fit what I mean

yeah it's right because that's what I've been told and it's really about at the end of the day you know sales what I want people buy from people right and so the at the and at the end of the day from a partner perspective if they're just talking say I That's bread and butter. Every partner should be able to do that. So when you're getting evaluated in an ITM implementation, all three partners are going to do this certain thing. Now there could be a differentiator with price cheap one rest of it. Um there could be a differential with brand oh this guy's you know big four whatever but the the the intangible is can I work with these people can I see the next six months and that's where

I wonder whether service now give me a fluff there cuz uh because cultural fit right I mean I can't imagine there's a client you would not get along with

and I can't imagine there's anything service now that you know the last five years that you probably couldn't do.

Yeah. Yeah.

So you the culturally fit to your body. Y

at some stage they pick you at some point. Do they have to ask them around?

It's your relationship with your account.

It's that it's 100% there. I don't source the commercials as well because a lot of partners will especially the the large partners that can can do that will go super super super low because they're not too worried about their margins when they got a bunch of people on bench that can have to,

you know, get billable. So that's a a major factor. But at the end of the day, it's again what I've been told. It's it's really about that personal connection and how they feel after the calls that that we have. And um you know all the time I get the benefit I don't get asked that you married to you. Yes.

I'm trying to figure out how the leads come into the machine.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I'm just like why would makeup manager pick yountation like great these guys job I'll definitely retire they might not even know you so they won't pick you or just pick guys that they generally know

that's right

I guess if they're like a huge organization they might work with the big four brand if they're very small they might want one too bad shot you get the ones in the middle then

you get the we get the ones in the middle the ones in the middle to to smaller space because a um again I think for them from a sales perspective. It does usually start commercial. This customer is too small. They're not going to be able to afford that, right? Where are they going to sit from a commercial perspective and then from there it is there is a level of expertise, right? Because if if we've, you know, we're getting into the sec ops space now, right? So we got a few wins on their belt with regards to that. So if out of the three departments, we're the only ones that have actually implemented sec ops. Obviously that's you know what I mean?

So stuff like that it is it is commercially all size wise.

So can I get that if you're on the listed three?

Yes.

Unfort Yeah. It's relationships. I've known these these I mean the industry is small right. So people for for quite some quite some time quite a long time. So you can they know you trust you work with you or experience that.

So then do you get invited to almost all the ones that fit that mid market?

Okay. That makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. So that that's probably our strongest pipeline because I'm not out there doing the beginning. We actually have this like here's a is a point here. We've never done specifically go to market marketing campaigns from the beginnings of the company but we've always relied on my relationships and from an basic perspective and from a service now perspective. So this year 2026 is going to literally be the first time we actually go cold marketing and going out to buy and offering that way. And is the volume from surf now alone enough to give you the growth you need?

It has many. Yes.

And will it be in the future?

No. For for what I'm trying to do now? Absolutely not. And the key thing as well going into a net new region, the way my mindset, the way I'm looking at it is no one knows, right? We're I'm starting a company again ultimately in the UK. So it's, you know, got, you know, great people here and the industry is small and the rest of it, but being here forever, but um we're going to do that again. And so to to your point, we can't rely on that level of relationship pipeline. That makes sense.

Yeah. So I get that for the UK. You don't say now Rich to get credibility. Correct. But that's true. I mean, do you get enough to give you the growth you want or you want more?

I want more. I definitely I definitely want more. I think we've hit the ceiling, right? And you know, in the beginning, I was saying that the next phase is is where we're at right now. Hence why I think the the marketing and the go to market strategy is really one to supplement and complement what we're getting from service ecosystem to to be able to, you know, get us to the next stage.

And when you get called into a deal with service now, look, what's your win rate? If there's three people on average, hopefully it's more than a third. It's hard to say. It's hard to say because um

out of the last 10 deals you were in

Yeah.

You went almost all you went half 5%.

I would say just under half.

Just under half. Yeah.

And the ones you like, do you ever get like why didn't they pick you?

No.

They probably don't get told.

They don't get told. They just go we're going with X.

Yeah.

Um and I don't ask. I just go okay well we didn't win. I move on to the next one. I don't really dwell on you know why I mean it would be good for continuous improvement like to get that feedback but it's never never asked it's a good question point actually

yeah why you never ask just

just not I'm just focus on the next I just like I can't believe that I'm going to go you know I got you know so many things happening that I just can't dwell on that not happening but I think I think as as we get to the next stage where things go slightly more strategic and the sales are tactical and you know, scrambling just to to get to that next stage, then we can really start to refine. I think also as well, it's a good point. I think also as well when you build out the sales capability, we're going to we're going to have to to do that as wider than what were the you know, gaps or what was the I think that's the next.

Yeah, there's probably there's probably three parts of that is um one if he knew that's what could you see through the conversion, right? Yeah.

For example, I might say, "Oh, these guys were great, but sure enough killed us."

Yeah.

That might be a totally fixable thing.

Yeah.

He didn't know, so he won't know to do that next time. Or they might be like, "These guys were great. Mo was amazing. He's like the CEO. He still worked with us. I didn't get to meet the actual does some different things that

um might if you if you knew why you aren't winning, you might be able to adjust to kind of push up that conversion perhaps."

Yeah. The other part of it is is um the other experiences when you get ill salesperson is um they're very good at making excuses.

Okay.

So a core sales person is to nar

okay

is to tell their CEO everything's great and the deal's just about to come just about to come just about and done and if they lose it to blame or shift to something else.

Okay.

Um and you probably want to know like what are the credible reasons people don't go. So says the reason was I don't know we had

the staff of India know what people in the Philippines for example

you should know is that a legitimate objection might feel

it's a good point it's a really good point

yeah okay no that's hey

yeah it's an effective on

um so now you've got one account manager then you know he No handful wouldn't be able to grow each account and and also region as well. So Melbourne and Sydney and quite interestingly we're finding a little bit more traction in Melbourne right now which it was always Sydney Sydney based and up until last year now we've got more customers in Sydney. And since the new sales person, you're thinking, are they going to work with these account values or will you unless you keep yourself?

Yes, 100%. Because I'm going to step away, right? I can't be in the weeds when it comes to to sales. Um I'm still going to be involved, but um they're definitely going to be the primary when the the key relationship funnel for service. I also um have a an amazing delivery that's just joined us as well. She's in an also big part of that process. So, as you know, she she manages our support customers and she manages obviously the the professional service project stuff, but you know, with support customers and people that, you know, we've worked with the past, it's all about, well, what can we do next? How else can we help you? And so yeah working in the sales now it

yeah um so if you let's say you get a saleserson now a new guy um like three six months you're interested in talking to account managers then pre-sales

so we've got a architect here in Australia um that does it for the Australian customers the j that I'm just bringing in the UK. He's got pre-sales skills as well. So, I'm I don't do technical pre-sales anymore. I used to. So glad I don't have to do it. So, we have got people that do the first meeting with the partners today.

Yes.

And are you the guy that talks about service now capabilities?

Yes. Do you talk more about your company?

So, so do that kind of. So that that I think still for the foreseeable future should still be me, right? So the to relay that story to give them the foundation and understanding of who we are as a company. No one's going to no one's going to get that sentiment across, right? So I'll still do that. I still want to do that, right? Because I love those conversations as getting to to know them and understanding them, right? And connecting with them. So I'm still going to do that. But then when they go, okay, well, we want a demo next week. That's what I I have and this is what's already happening in science. But now I personally person and they smashed it up.

how how much of your time today is actually caught up in the sales side of things? So I've learned guess not a lot because the leads are coming from your sales for your service partner sorry. Um they're doing the pre-sales work for you in terms of finding the leaders come along. They'll give you some sort of brief.

Yeah.

And you literally come along as like the pre-sales company expert.

That's right.

And then you hand into delivery first and does the more detailed stuff.

Yes.

How much of your time is being sucked up by that?

Interestingly, 80% of the time because there's so much now.

And so there's so many.

That's right. Both both. There's there's there's been a ramp up over the last year with both from an economic perspective, climate change, people starting to open up and spend more, but also there's been a lot of ramped up the market also now, especially in our space as well as space. And so the the questions, the proposals, the meetings, um there's a lot and because it's for me, I have to, you know, I have to balance my size and there's still a bit of delivery that I'm finishing off that started a year ago before our delivery leader jumped on. That was a jour. So there's a balance between delivery and sales right now. and then pumping and all the ad boring stuff.

Yeah. But if it's if mobile is right beyond service now like one of the things you said was a sales person going to try to find cold leads as well.

Yes.

Um is the ramped up volume of service now not enough to not be cold leads or you need that as well. So I'm in terms of that offering that's two layers to it right. Yes to increased pipeline demand in customers just net new from a an overall work perspective but this is also the first time in you know Jurro that we're being specific in terms of our offering we're a generalist and we yeah we'll do what

anything so this donor market this marketing is all based on AI so we're going out to market saying we are AI specialists we can take you on your AI

AI service now specialist

correct

AI And so it's more so about being very pointed on what we do rather than going we just do service that which is you know what the AES have been doing and and it's all you know it's just hard enough you know they they'll get us in way where it's in it but now we're saying hey we do this and so yes it is to get more customers but it's to get specific customers that

yeah perfect so what have you done so far as a final sales person what's the process you go through

just basically putting a job out out there and u you know

going like on LinkedIn and seek or whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly. Just Yeah. And I've I've had some interesting up against I will say you know over the last couple of months. Um I've got some I've had some really great conversations as well. So I feel that we're sort of almost there.

Is there a help me understand that is it more like 100k person or 150 or 250k person like what is this kind of the base for this?

Yeah it's 100 to 150.

Okay. So they probably 70 years experience.

Correct. Correct.

They're probably like late 20s by now.

They probably hopefully work some large and now they want their next role.

Correct. Okay.

That's literally who I will speak to naturally. Little bit younger though, which is great.

Yeah.

Um yeah, they come from a bigger company, you know, they they dig their time there. They feel like, okay, well, what's my next stage? Oh, this is what's my next step. This has come up.

Um this looks interesting and you know, I want to I want to understand more. So, um, you know, it's a it's a I get it. It's it's a big risk jumping into a new entity and a new region. I get it. Um, so the people from their perspective perspective

young people don't think

that's what I'm saying. So, so

don't think about that's why we've sort of been speaking to the more younger type. Well, I always say what stand just to sort of sing where they're at and um actually panics, but um no, it's they're the type of people I want to work with, the risk safe, the people that are willing just to chop in and certainly that will probably fine.

Yeah. Like they're the ones that will be attracted by like yours.

And and how you how are you screening? Like how you figuring out this is a good person, this is not a good person. Like what's that process for your wife? For me the when I when I have these conversations you know I'll talk about specific tangible again well how well do you know this now and the rest of it want to be done and all that right and want to be sold and you know you go through that list of the actual hardful skill sets but as I'm talking to them for me I'm evaluating can I see this person in front of the CTF selling blah blah blah can I not be in the room and have this person describe

and what are you looking for like what telly they can what ty they can't

so it's position It's it because I've been in the industry for that long. There's nuances of how you explain what the platform could do both from a seuite perspective, a technical perspective because you got to marry both depending on your audience, right? But it's also how do you communicate that value very quickly? It's what I I don't care about. Tell me how it's going to work. You know, how is it going to solve my problem? And so the the the way that they describe things, the way that they communicate shows me that they can navigate those conversations and it's you know I mean swap out for technology at Microsoft right the Microsoft person will be looking how would they explain that you know so it's no science to it but it's more so the relatives

okay because um that that makes sense it's probably I don't know they're going to be able to explain to a CEO or to a CT and they're going to have they're going to have threat to a bit of explaining.

Correct. Yeah.

Um, so what else are you looking for?

So, someone that can really hustle. For me, the key is hustle, right? Because they're going to be the one of the first boots on the ground in the UK. And

so, the sales is specifically in the UK. I don't need to hire a saleserson because I'm doing that.

Yeah. Do they need to be that way? Right now, because we're expanding, the key is to

um Yeah, there's going to be probably overlap. I'll probably get them to help me out with sales stuff across and even from a structural process perspective they're going to have any to help us improve sales and to your point what did we do wrong all that sort of stuff right that's going to be the stuff that they can help but to your point hustle they got to be just willing to get dirty how you how you pulling that out process what they've done before and a lot of what piques my interest when they've done the really crappy door

knocking so They they've lost their core reluctance. They're happy to pick up the phone.

Correct. Correct. That's what you need. That that tenacity down. Do I want to be Do I want to be a company that goes out harassing people? No. But you have to have that fortitude and that that tough.

You got to overcome that fear.

You do. And dude, you're either that one I've learned, you know, um throughout this journey, hunters and um farmers, right? You're either a hunter or a farmer. I haven't met someone that's both. And so right now, we need a hunter. net you need someone to go out there and just knock out the many doors. It's a lumber game right now and then you hire the farmers when we've got you know a bunch of logos. How can we expand?

Yeah. What's the what's the probability of success of this guy when you get do you reckon?

So I've got to be pragmatic and I got any chance they're going to be slowly sign

I would say right now 70%. because I'm not making these highs. I'm not making these these decisions based on uh limited runway, right? So, I'm not sort of being that um I'm not gambling that much, right? So, if they're able to make their probation, I think then we're going to be in a very strong and that's the key. And if they don't, they don't. Then we move on.

And historically, in your experience, what do you see in the success rate for service now sales people? Well, we've never had you talking about a general generically people like part sales reps that turn over like to most people. No, no, that's that's that's a really really good question and there's been people I've tried to approach when it first started right now. I'll stay. I'm saying there hasn't been a lot of turnaround.

Okay.

A lot of there there's been some shifts obviously in the market with and you know certain you know the climate was you know tough couple years ago you know last year sorry the year before but yeah that's a really good point. There's not a lot of turnover. It's so hard to

even partners as well.

100% 100% especially apartments because they've only got an a handful of depending on the size of it. There's not a lot of salespeople in a lot of the part partner ecosystem. So they all fit them really well, paid them really well. They hold up to them.

Yeah.

In at least in the Australian market often sales people don't leave because they're doing well and they got this commission, they've got client base, they're growing, they can refer to so they'll lose all that. So that makes me wonder maybe it's a quote easy thing to sell. Yeah, it is because like if you get certain leads, they've done a lot of free work for you. You need to come and do your part.

Yeah.

They should do a crap job and they'll be getting Yeah. Yeah. It is. It is because the I think what it comes down to the success of platform as a whole is flexibility. It can do so much, right? And it's not limiting when the customer goes, "Oh, can you help me with this?" Yes. But I think it's not easy to sell because of the quality of the product like um let me compare it to something like Salesforce right similar things like yeah

um I reckon the churn of sales people at sales for like 50%. Yeah, I you make two quarters. So you make two quarters you're out. I reckon the I've got no idea those two unit that surface out the frontline sales people. They probably have very high trend. They probably have that same sales force AWS d mentality or much likely not performing you very quickly.

Yeah.

So I reckon it's not easy to sell them because it's a great product. It's probably easier to sell because you're coming in later in the process

that the front front row sales rep. He's been sat three times. in there and now he's the job. He's done that for 6 months of selling at least get service out to the table or the CTO and now you're coming in at the back end of three.

That's right.

And he's getting 50%. Were you doing better than average doing better than most?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. And and that's only rising recently. And I think there's a lot of factors to that. I think

one of the key things is just market confidence. like people are just willing to have no more money. It's they've got approvals. I think that's key.

So that will increase your lead on your conversions. I mean projects that

so you keep the same conversion and you increase that will just grow as well.

Yeah.

Um but with that in mind that kind of makes sense why partners don't use their sales rep. They probably don't need any because well service now picking up the sales cost.

Yes.

And that's why they get each cut of it.

Correct. Um you're it's almost like you you're not almost not a hunting you're more like a farmer. You got to farm these sales for this relationship and then you got to go and up.

Absolutely. Abs and and that's that's why this is the first time in 2026 we're actually not as cold as an organization. Absolutely right. So if cold hunting is highlighted and soaps now, Salesforce, Microsoft, they all have a fixed ch.

Why would you do that? So those cycles take a while, but you're not in control. That's one of the key things. I wait for them to come to me. I mean we have

explain to you right

where am I talking to we have strategy sessions obviously a lot of the guys meet all the time and talk all the time but it's based on them having something whereas I need to control my pipeline directly and ensure that I know that I'm doing what I can on this side to be able to to build that up. So that's one of the key reasons and also um and it's really depend too much but it it depends on who I pick in the UK you know do I go for a straight up answer or do I go for that person that does have deep service now you know relationships and just rely on that again so it's a I need a balance you know if I had to put silver bullet

you get somebody bit of both I'm still not I still don't totally get one which you cuz it's expensing to new work.

It is.

It's a insanely expensive.

It is.

And you're amazing situation where you're almost like upselling to existing clients or be their service now clients may not be your client to you.

Um so they already know about products. They're not comparing you know you versus Salesforce versus other kind of pass.

Okay. So

yeah 100%. Yeah. Yeah. We have to go up against the platform.

So I guess the mult that work is probably done by service and you just have to do your

some of the Yeah. summer as I was saying the fourth summer we get into it whereby we are directly competing just happened recently the last year we are directly competing with other technology we have to say maybe not just service now why would you choose service now yeah there there is a bit of that

okay but in in that world sure you're giving up control you're giving up margin you know you got license fee which is all fine um but you're giving up a lot of the cost and a lot of the grief

yeah yeah and I think that that's What I've found as well, what I've seen with other partners is that we've been fortunate enough to be in a position. I don't think, you know, I never take that for granted or you know, any success with training, but I don't think that's the norm. I don't think that, you know, become a partner now take takes care of. I don't think

so. I agree. It's not the norm, but I don't think it was an accident.

I'm sure it's something you purposely did. you build great relationship job's happy that he gets a lot of complaints they get complaining you

exactly right it's probably not but I don't think it's an accident

okay okay

um so when you go to the UK is this going to be service now like jungle

same

exactly I'm just going to replicate what works here and just to look there and the key thing is in you know summarizing what you saying only takes like one or two just to get going one or two account managers so to get know you to use it at work you get couple leans a month or whatever the right number is

correct and then you just build up that reference sign out and then they'll be happy with you

correct correct but you've got to prove yourself you've got to gain their trust you've got to do good work at the end of the day because it's one thing to win a deal and a a engagement but yeah like you you stuck up. That's it. You're done.

Yeah,

you're done.

Why Why expand to the UK? Like, is this surroundly saturated for you?

100%. There's so many new partners. Like I don't I went to Caseic when I went to a conference last year and there were five partners that had boo. I've never seen these people before and the market and sorry the ecosystem and the community is so small. I'm like this all these new people, you know, and it just popped up really really quickly, you know. So um when when I started there were like five now they're like 100 ridiculous and you know from the the market for just organizations in general that would use it now not that big. We don't have a lot of large scale companies here. So here's a like from an a numbers perspective, you're probably going to get maybe like 10 major transformation projects a year within Australia and then 100 partners going for it.

that's what I'm competing against, you know, and and plus again, we're not in that big four space, you know, every partner has their, you know, the their their rank that's here, but I just feel like and and hence why the US is sort of attracted to the space and skate. There's so much more and there's more. I get it. I get it. But I feel that um once you find that space, you have more options whereas here, you've got to do a lot of different things. You have to

but you reconcile I get this every man need three sales for consult service

Microsoft consultants get together

correct and they set up their own consult

um so I get that I get why you've got like a thousand players

yes

but help me reconcile that against what you're saying about getting more work that's you know you've got great relationships you're getting the deals Yeah. Yeah.

Um does it not does it not matter what's your likes of living involved that has a great relationship with surface out but you don't win everything and you still got that competition but then it also becomes a race to the bottom.

Oh when they don't win they got people on the base cost base they're holding want to get and they they absolutely go silly and then you know you got the customer going well

you all. Exactly. So that works for us when we're going up against the players. But when you're competing against people in your same, you know, segment, it's up. It's like because then I've got to make a decision. Well, do I not make any money just to win, you know, against people that not willing to do that? Well, it's not fun to not make money.

Exactly. So why do we know what I mean? And um I think I think we're we're finally getting out of that phase where to to you know eat to to to to get through like we've proved ourselves right so why should we now you know like we're still competitive but we don't have to win deals and lose money. Yeah we're at that stage.

Okay so if the market is not big enough for you get the you want you got two choices right? You can either expand chamber traffic which is obviously back to the UK. Yes.

The other option is try to sell more stuff to your existing clients.

Yes.

So, hey do service now. We'll do some infrastructure money. We'll do some other stuff as well. Did you consider that as part of it?

Yeah, absolutely. Um that has been in my past. It's definitely been something I've done. And after doing that for a couple of years, um I've realized that's not for me.

Yeah.

I enjoy doing service now. You've got to do something that you think is a good opportunity that will bring you money that will do all the things to tick all the boxes to really dug if that's for you. And even if things are going really really great with it, um there'll always be a time where it gets hard and those are going to be the times where test you are doing this for the right reasons. And so I learned going through that process is I don't want to w and struggle doing something I don't need.

Yeah, you're not you're not thinking it's not my thing. And so um to answer your question, you know, I and and I the reason why I was really open and and you know, um entertain that's that's what we did at Deote. We were able to walk into any Um and so it made sense to me from that perspective, but then I did that on my own and it's not for me.

Okay. stuff. I really actually enjoy doing so now. It's easy. Nothing wrong with special to consider.

Yeah.

And then how did you pick the UK? Because that's 12 hours of time.

I know. It's tough.

It's tough. So really off the back of the success that we've had with the large scale global legal firm that is based in the UK and so Aussie customer were they referred you in or you might imagine?

So no. Yeah. So it was the it was really the the Australian part of business that we started to talk to and that I guess opened the doors for us for um you know that to win that opportunity to to build a relationship right was really started with the Australian um business and then yeah the head offices was in the UK but a lot of the departments that we were building the capabilities for in the UK and the rest of it and so doing that for a year and a half almost um you know you build up the tolerance Yeah, you get used to it.

Yeah, you used to it stuff. Get used to it. But um it it just opened my eyes and and made me realize, hang on a second, in the UK as as a blackhead segment looking into it and and dealing with people over there, dealing with service now UK and then I was UK in November and just you know talking to other people there, it's like this could you know I'm really and it hasn't like I said the US was always the pipe dream for me. wasn't even a consideration and only in the last say two months two three months have I gone we've got a global use case here I've got people in the ground it just makes so much sense so that's and and then obviously you have seen the limitations here of the Australian market of my

and they're not present in the UK like there's not as dense in terms of competitors

oh it is it is it's just again just like the US this is more space for you to play in and more accelerated acceptance or from a market a market acceptance or being a specialist here. If you were just to do say cyber, you wouldn't give me enough. No chance. Not enough over there. They've got partners that have been around for the last eight years just doing one module, one module. So I feel like, you know, going over there and and being a specialist just in itself is going to be, you know, way you way more than if it was successful way more than what we do. Okay. I mean, that kind of makes sense.

I mean, if if that client wasn't in the UK, you you didn't supposedly get that deal, would you still have done the UK?

No, definitely not. Yeah, definitely not. That really opened my eyes and allowed us to expand. Then it was I would say it was a forcing function, but because they wanted someone in country to support them, I had to hire. So, I'm like, well, I'm hiring there. There's this I don't have any customers in the US based in the US. I don't even have a story to tell when I go there. At least when I go to the UK, hey, we're you know Griff and it's a household name over there. Everyone knows the company. So I was like, we're working with them. That already gives you some kind of validation and you know a bit of trust.

So that it's all it's all these little nuance organic things that are kind of leaning towards doing that. So

yeah. And how much your time was this going to take opening up in the UK? It's a lot. I'm prepared. I'm prepared. But and I think and that's really it's a really good point because I think psychologically what this last year and subconsciously shown me that I can do it because we were doing like from 6 to like 11 p.m. ing sessions just one session after this team and this team and this team like every single day every day after week

and if I hadn't done that and I would have se I'm going to have to do that it'll probably be an in barrier for me but I'm like I work on it

having one customer meeting that's that's great compared to what I did you know I mean if I got to do a 10 p.m. for half an hour it's easy to these four three hour workshops with you know these different teams so I think it's that that's probably in it's a really good point I think that's probably one of the factors that oh I can do this

and can you do that and still run the Australian business

yeah I've done it I've had to do it I've already done it that's what I'm saying spent so much time doing all of the UK time and then had to wake up and then do all Australia I've already done it so it's tiring Indonesia me because it's exciting It's new. The UK is new. You know, I've some someone I've always, you know, connected with. And so, um, especially after it's a cool place. Um, that's the motivation. Just that that that little gives you that spark that you, you know, and and and it feels like actually, you know, when I started planning for it and doing all the okay, this is what I'm going to do.

It felt like I was getting that same vibe. I

brought you back to the puppet you enjoyed the most, right? will be your probably your career is this fast.

Yeah, exactly. This is something I get quite I guess why it makes sense and got a client there three or four people mostly pay themselves you

correct pass the sense

but always always think you want

you want your best people on your hardest problem

um and to open up in the UK is like 10x higher than winning a client here right yeah you got huge insights lots of local infrastructure in the UK you might have one client or two three people but that's hard to solve of yeah

and it's a much much higher sale. It is it is it is but I will add to that we do have global references. So it's not just Australian companies that we say we've worked with. So I think that also gives us a bit

it might make it easier but it's still 10x higher. not that it's not undoable. It will just be 10x harder.

And if it's 10x hard you don't think you'll be based in the UK for a couple of years.

I I thought about that 100%. And so that is definitely not attenable. It's not something

it's it's not

for 12 months 6 months.

No,

I don't know what

the US maybe. I'm thinking about that that that I I'll probably do. But that's a future that's a future decision I need to make. D I have about this and I really think um because we've we've had so much success with other global customers being based in Australia and I I don't see that as a barrier to entry me not being on the ground I am going to spend time get me wrong but not to to your point I didn't straight six months there 12 months right so I was there in November I'm going to go and get in the next couple months and then maybe again towards the end of the year so I will be present Um and I think the the appetite is different now from a from an engagement perspective because of kind of

so I hear all that I've seen so many companies try to expand to another region and it just love words.

Okay.

I'm on the board of two companies do that right now.

Right.

Okay.

And what it often is is um I said you want your investment

and you being in London is just different to you being here.

Absolutely. So I'm sure whenever you go suddenly it's amazing to meet people face to face or even if you even if your team used to be like oh yeah I'm in this town comes in like you don't feel a bit more like oh

um I just reckon you being there you've got a lot more like

is that fair absolutely agree with you and so that's why this this decision for the saleserson just like I got to nail that because

the I have more chance of them you know being there so because I could hire someone hearing it if I sell it from you right I could do that myself but yeah no you're absolutely right

and the other advantage to putting your best person in this case you from okay you market

is let's just say you get a sales person it doesn't work

you've had him for a year it's you just not making what you expected to make

how do you figure out what went wrong was the saleserson or was the market how do you unclench that

it's a great question and that's the risk I have no answer to that. That's the risk, right? Because you've just got to solve the problem the best way that you can do. Um, and as you know with business, there's always that element of luck of fortune, right?

And it is, but when it doesn't work, you got to untake a workforce

and look at where it went wrong.

Yeah.

And my suggestion would be is the only way you can do that is experience for yourself for

Okay. So if you're actually in that meeting which you can kind of do online remote but that's not intent

but a good have like a good saleserson does remote.

Yeah they go with the guy for lunch afterwards.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um unless you love the edge experience firsthand.

How was he tangle? Was it the rep or was it the

or maybe this AI and specialist thing is not working

because will just tell you whatever they tell you to say their job and died in another 3 months.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How can you do that?

That's a good question. That's a good question. I think um I think it's really in I mean obviously trying to get feedback is the key right of why we we look

well the feedback you get will be sort of by yourself. No, I'm not saying not from from maybe from the service now person.

Correct. Yeah, because I feel like the majority of our initial opportunities will come through sales. Um, and I think then there if that's the case, there's not going to be anywhere for them to hide, right? Because they're going to be critiqued. They're going to be in front of these people, right? But for the people, sorry, for the the opportunities where they're not, yeah, it's going to be difficult 100%. And it's it's something that I'm going to have to to look at. Um I I think it's a numbers game as well because if they're going for say, you know, 50 customers and we don't win, then we know that they're not targeting either the right ones or enough.

If we're getting meetings with 40 people out of those 50, then there's something happening, you know, in those meetings that um is either going right or wrong.

So that won't help you untangle whether it's the rep.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because a rep will tell you, oh, too expensive.

The rep will tell you, oh, the person on hold, but actually got signed up.

They will tell you, oh, they want to do a white firm. They don't like that. the main offices needed in in a

so I just wonder unless you're actually physically there

and it might not be Luke Neph a crappy two week five kind of deal if fly fly

yeah it's yeah which which is something I to that I could defin maybe not two weeks but whatever I think there's a there's a need for cadence for sure I think I agree with you there yeah for sure

because I reckon if you don't do that I'll take if I was the crystal board years time.

Absolutely.

I reckon you'll get

um you'll have you'll be so excited period. Oh my god, we're so amazing. Got all these leads, they've got all these deep connections, which I've never met who's actually had to do with deep connections.

Um

and then you'll you'll have this hype cycle and then it'll slowly slowly go away

and at some point you start be questioning yourself like why is this not working? Mhm.

Um and in manager we will just say get another one.

Yeah.

Thinking probably

because that's the only data point you have but I'm talking to this person. They tell me the exact same thing week after week after week.

Um and I'm still not actually getting closer to me. Yeah.

From the rep. Let me start something else.

Yeah.

And same exact same scenario.

Um my experience with sales reps, I reckon 25% succeed.

I reckon 75%. your ones selling service now are different. They're more like account managers kind of thing.

Correct. You're selling cold, but I

Well, if you look at the people that um that in frontline service now, frontline sales force, it's probably about 25% that have been there for more than a couple years.

Yeah.

Um and the other 75% have been there like 3 months, six months. Yeah.

And you kind of hope they'll make it through. Yeah. But here's the the defining factor for me is the first six months, right? So nothing happens in that first six months. Then I'm making that decision then early. I'm not to your point, I'm not waiting a year for no sales.

But I guess the point

it's not about making a decision is you won't know what decision to make.

Sing them might be totally the right thing.

But you won't know whether it was then or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I get you. I get you. That makes that

you don't like you kind of got the symptom you're not getting enough sales.

Yes.

You actually won't be able to figure out the cause unless you're there

to to to actually experience it, right?

You got to experience it firstand. You got to experience like reality for yourself,

not through filtered views of other people. And that's what happens when you're a manager. You just get more more distracted at what's on the ground and then you you end up being a he says, right? But someone below you tells you what the client said because you talk to like Yeah.

And that's totally normal as you move um because you're kind of moving from a managerial role where managing people directly to more. Is that right where you imagine people that's managing things?

That's right. That's exactly what's happening. And that's that's that's where this new face is is is taking us right there now becoming layers of management. So

and you have heard the concept of the f of war.

Yes.

Yep. So the f of war that's you know when

there's only so much you can see based on what you see. Yes.

And your f of war will actually get very narrow your organization. You'll see less. M

and you let have those voice little interaction that that get your spider sense going oh something's right something's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's happening from a technical perspective now that I'm stepping out out of development. I absolutely know. I'm not sure.

Yeah. I was watching the conversation again.

So you got to wait for them to say five times. Let me go.

Yeah.

Let me go ask Gemini. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. So I think no I think I think that's you know you've given me a lot of food for thought in terms of proximity. I think that's where we're we're looking at from a a gap perspective is proximity to the cells in the UK, right?

But the problem you're going to find that now let's just say a week whatever the case is, right?

You say 25% of my time just for the next six months, right?

Just so I can quickly figure out got the right person. If not, let me sack them against someone else real quick.

Yeah.

If I have the right person, they actually feel like they're part of the duro. They feel loyalty to me. They feel like we care for them. They see what you know the mother sheep is actually they're still and they might be you there might be person the next month they might be training person the next month like they see someone

and they're experiencing someone

um the downside is you'll end up in Australia

yeah that's that's the thing I'm I'm

so you're looking your wife management call like hey we got a meeting Tuesday next week here's the address I'll see you there

yeah like

so the question I guess for you then based on that which is amazing and thank you. How do I look at and identify what I should be freeing up? Because you always, you know, you're thinking best person on the job and the rest of it, but for me, how do I make that decision?

So, part of it is you want to figure out what it is that you can that you're doing right now that if it was 90% okay, that would be okay.

Okay.

So, no, like I know doing an expense claim, right? If someone was only 90% as good as you, that would be fine.

Yeah.

So, it's not the end of the world, right?

Meeting a client. Well, no. You don't want to screw that up. That's a front end of revenue. Okay.

You probably don't want to get rid of that.

Sure.

Okay.

Um and you want to actually start hing off all the things that that you that you're doing that you don't need to do. Like one super easy way to do it when I first started was you get three EA up in the Philippines.

Okay.

You get three EA pay them across all three. You pay them say six grand a year a month.

Okay. Um, and you just literally, um, if they're good EAS, you run like a loom and you just record what you do

like from the m moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep and you give them that recording and you say, "Here's what I do. Which part of what I do can you do?"

Okay,

that's an interesting

and 3 weeks later, you sack two of them and you keep the one that actually says, "That's what I can do. I'll do this for you. I'll do that for you. I'll do that for you."

Right?

Because you want to almost outsource the ability, outsource the need to figure out what you can untangle. Yeah.

Often founders can't untangle.

This is now that I'm hearing and digesting what you're saying. I'm like, what do I even

Yeah.

Okay.

So, try that.

Okay.

Try that.

So, you loom everything that you do.

You like this moment you wake up, just just loom it all. And if if you have if you can do it for a couple of days, even do a voice over about what you're thinking as you do the task just so they can start thinking about, okay, he's that's why he's doing that. That's why he's doing that. How does it put into your calls?

And they'll pick up things, right? They'll be like, "Okay, so after you have a meeting, if you have a transcript, I'll draft up your your automatic reply." Which AI does a lot of that anyway, but

that's true.

Like there'll be stuff like that, right? They can be like, "You tend to not have breaks between meetings, so these tasks don't get done.

Uh, but then you do them at 10 p.m. at night to clean up all the stuff you couldn't do.

You want me to do the first cut of that?"

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Or you spend a lot of time stuffing around with PowerPoints, moving stuff around, which is

a lot of that. or every time every time you have a new meeting, you get the last PowerPoint. You change these 17 things.

So

that's my life, sorry. That is literally my life.

So what a good year would be like, okay, well two weeks before any meeting, I'll have your PowerPoints ready in your folder in one drive.

What?

And I'll just send you a 30 second loom to tell you here's what I've done.

But then how do they get the because I've got to get, you know, really specific with those. I just want to deep dive in this because this is such a problem for me. How do nuances of service now and the specifics and how do you get to that level?

You get someone smart.

Yeah.

Um so for example uh my last year for she's left me now but she she was a medical doctor.

She was a hematologist.

Oh wow.

Um she was paid 10 bucks US an hour. So she was paid more than the local doctor in the Philippines and damn she was smart. Jeez.

Smarter than me. So go find a service now pre-sales tech in the Philippines or Indonesia or India man. Yes, there's your there's your nugget. There's your goal that will save me so much time. That's amazing. Thank you. Such a great idea. Honestly,

cuz then they'll be 80% as good as you and you can always check their work every day.

Yeah. Yeah. Could tweak it. But I mean, that's that's the hardest part is just starting and finding this the head space to go, okay, this customer, what do they want? Blah blah blah. And sitting down and actually building it. If I get that and it's pre-baked, even if I'm changing one or two things in there,

and then every time you fix it, you'll do a loom to be like, "Oh, that was wrong. That was wrong. That was wrong." And what you'll do over time is you um you want to systematize the onboarding process. So, you'll save all these looms of all the corrections you've made.

And pretty soon you'll have 50 looms of corrections. So, that guy goes, the next person you onboard, here's my training, here's my onboarding, go learn this, we'll start in two weeks time.

Yeah. Wow. Um, so you can cycle through these people or let's just say that person gets pulled onto a project, right? Yeah.

Oh my god, we got some work. Don't know who to give it to. Oh, we'll sell Mer EA.

Yeah. Yeah.

So the next EA you get, you'll just give them that as your onboarding

and it's already there.

It's already there pre-base. You got your voice over. You're correcting stuff.

That's great.

That alone, you're talking about like shifting and man, that would take so much time off my plate.

Oh, brilliant. So you can do that plus the rep plus the time.

Those three things might actually could solve this

100%. because that takes so much time because it's also for me personally and where I get caught up in is um cuz I'm a visual person and so I spend so much time designing. So if I can get someone just to do the initial designs cuz that's fiddly you know we're just talking about editing. Yeah. So fiddly it just you got to set aside like hours to do that for me. If someone's doing that in parallel I'm doing

that's amazing man. That is amazing. I think that alone is going to do a have a big effect. And if you recruit right, you might find somebody who's better at design than you.

Oh, 100% I do as good as I can. But yeah, like an actual person that does design will smash it compared to me.

That's awesome.

And then as over time, what you might do is set up an or structure. So you'll have your EA,

but you'll give them a designer that can do design work for them 5 hours a week, 10 hours a week.

So they can grab do the part service now part. They've got a designer in house or external upwork, whatever.

They do their little part. and you just get the finished package.

Wow. How have you find how have you found sorry um because I I know that you you've got sort of dedicated EAS but in terms of finding them and getting them are these people from the Upworks and Fibers or these people part of because I' I've looked in a very very high level and this is more so I guess from a BD perspective but you know you got those agencies Philippines and the rest of it.

How do you where did you find yours or is there a directive that you could recommend go to this or try that or whatever?

Yeah. So, look, in the same way, if um one of your clients buys from you, um you're going to charge more, right? So, you've got to make margin

and you you hold a risk that they don't otherwise have to hold and then you'll pay your guys less.

Yeah.

Um so, they're really really great sales for consultants, I reckons, go on their own, right?

Because they totally can.

It's the exact same up in the Philippines. Like, I'd never go from an agency.

You'll pay 50% more. Yeah.

Because they got to make they make a real good margin and that's fair. They the whole sit on hold but then they pay the people less.

Yeah.

So they get crappier people.

Yeah. Okay.

So you're better off you go with an Upwork, you take them off platform after a couple of weeks. Pay them directly. There's heaps of tech that does that for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And you'll pay them 30% more than their local salary.

Wow. Which will still be 20%

Yeah. Which should still be 20% less than um getting

from an agency

and they will treat you like gold. They will be so thankful for the work.

Amazing.

And they'll work really hard.

Yeah.

Done. Don't do that.

I'm doing that before because it's been something I've been thinking about in the background, but I'm like, is it is it going to be effective? Am I just going to be spending money? Is it the right thing to do? Right. But you just

Yeah,

that's it. And the other thing you might do in six months time, if that works for you, is then scale that across your exact team is to get a lot of these other people in your team to get like an offshore EA and pay the EA 10 grand a year or something.

So instead of always had adding more domestic heads, add lower skill, lower cost heads

for that for that sort of stuff, right? Um, would it work? I This is a very How long as a piece of string, but a shared sort of resource or could it really be a onetoone EA?

Well, it kind of depends. I think for you, you want one to one.

Okay.

Cuz um Well, the reason I had three was I wanted something around 24 hours literally, right?

Cuz I'll be working at 5:00 in the morning, work at midnight, and I just want someone there all the time. So, I had staggered staggered staff.

Yeah. Exactly.

But for you, I think it's just just oneonone for now. Just kind of get it working. And then over time, you might have a pool. You might have two or three people

and you just know that person's better at design, that person's better at attention to detail. And sometimes you'll give both the same task just just because you want two options. Um, so here's a brief that I've gotten from a prospect. Here's my loom.

Cuz every time you give them work, don't call them, loom them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Then they can replay. You can send two people at once.

Yeah.

And you say, "Here's my brief. Can you go do this task?"

Okay.

I do that for holiday planning. You send it to three days and you get three options.

Yeah. Right.

I want to go to Thailand in between this this day. Figure out something. And then you get those. Yeah.

And I got three options. I just pick the one that I like.

That works.

Yeah.

Or a combination.

That's so cool. Done.

Perfect. Awesome. So, how do we go? So, let's just summarize. So, how do I get the right salesperson? How do I manage them? What was what was your key takeaways? So, I think one of the the key things and it might tie into another point, but I think um an overarching um approach for a lack of a better term, proximity and knowing exactly what is working and what is not and making sure I filter out excuses and also understand experience because it might not even be their fault. just because of whatever whatever right but knowing that and I think the only way I'm going to do that is through proximity so that's one of my key take

you got you got to experience it for yourself

I got to experience it for myself absolutely I think that that's something that

I didn't think of and I'd love so thank you great yeah

brilliant awesome well the last question I always ask on these podcasts is what is something that you've always known to be true that later on you found actually wasn't

gez that's a very profound question

it's a profound question yeah

I think the the notion or the um the romantic idea of starting a business, you have to be an expert or really good at starting a business. You don't. You really don't. I think people that are successful in businesses aren't people that have gone to Harvard or you have MBAs and the rest of it. I feel like they're the people that have been resilient that haven't given up. They have the grit to continue the not the they don't have to be the smartest, most intelligent people in their field, but they have to be the most resilient. And that's something that I've learned going through my journey.

Yeah, that makes it. And plus, a lot of the people that start businesses and successful are actually not that great at the start.

That's right.

They build the competencies on the way through

and then you see the end result of this rockstar, you're like, I don't have that. I can't do that.

Cuz that's what we see. We see this this image of that rockstar that has made a million dollar whatever gajillion dollar business. But it's like everyone's got to start from somewhere.

It's okay not to know. That's why I always tell it's okay not to know. Just learn.

Yeah. To me.

Awesome. Right. Thank you very much for coming out.

That was amazing and I appreciate it.

Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you do want to be a guest, make sure you hit me up and do follow me on socials and make sure you check out