The Role of Resilience in Career Success

I know that your resilience is based on what you tell yourself. A lot of the times when those thoughts would creep in, I'd be like, you know, you look just ignoring it doesn't work either.

It's still there, right? So, you have to acknowledge it and I go, okay, I do this thing as a coaching technique called reframing. What else is possible? Right? So, you could you can I can accept that or I could believe that this will work out. There were days when I thought, well, I never get a job. All those sorts of things. But the reality was I was doing a lot of interviews. I mean it's not like people were not taking my phone call. But here's a lot of things that I heard from men who were being very supportive at the time. Treat getting a job like having a job. I mean honestly that would have been the worst advice for me.

It's like you know when you're lying in bed and you think I've got to get out of bed and you kind of go 1 2 3 you get out right or you have the choice just to lay there. Something in me in those moments just says have a go. And before I've even really thought about it properly, I've said it or I've done it.

Running a business can feel lonely, especially when the decisions get heavy. Welcome to CEO Whisper by Sa Jane. Practical insights from the boardroom and the meditation cushion. I'm Sora. I've done 10,000 hours in three major parts of my life. I spent 10,000 hours being a CEO, 10,000 hours being a board member, and 10,000 hours meditating. What we're going to do in each episode is really unpack a real business challenge that a CEO is facing and see if we can work through it together. Enjoy. Good day guys. S here from CEO Whisperer. Today we have Sarah with us. Sarah, do you want to tell us a bit about yourself? Absolutely. So my name is Sarah Derry and um I'm a mother.

I'm an entrepreneur. Um I'm someone who cares really passionately about making a difference. My philosophy is all about connecting people to their potential. So whether that's individual teams, others. Uh right now I'm group CPO for the Star Entertainment Group.

CPO people

chief officer.

Well, Star Entertainment.

Yes. At the same

Is that the Casino Star? Is it okay?

Yep. We operate three casinos in New South Wales and in Queensland. I also chair of a not for-p profofit board. I run my own consulting business and I'm also the founder um of a women's network called women that which is all about inspiring, influencing and creating change for women in travel, hospitality, tourism and accommodation and events. So that's what I'm currently doing but I have been a past CEO twice. I did a sprint role for 12 months for a not for profofit which was amazing after my role at a core and recently I was a core CEO for the Pacific region. 21,000 team members, 400 odd hotels. And my background leading up to that was again I ran my own business, but I also was really in the HR space.

I came from operations, went into HR, went into entrepreneurship, and then I went back into organizations as CEO.

So, you're full-time at Star. So, you you're doing like one and a half 50 kind of thing.

Yeah, pretty much. Um, at the Star, it's um it is a full-time role. So I'm I'm really there you know Monday to Friday on call when needed and so on and I just fit the other things around it obviously evenings weekends those sorts of things with my own consultancy it's very much around very bespoke projects that we're doing and a lot of it is around executive coaching often for startups and entrepreneurs.

Yeah. Okay. Brilliant. So the way we run this podcast is we we talk through an idea that's kind of top of mind for you someone that's causing some grief and we workshop that together. So what is top of mind for you right now? I think there's two things. One is that in the last couple of years I've made some personal transitions and you know I'm really starting to think about what's next. You know what are the next things that I'm going to be doing? That's one thing that's top of mind. I think a lot of people when you've had a very wholesome career like I have it's really about thinking about what is the really interesting work that you're going to be doing.

And so up to you know probably two years ago I had very steady career and then I was in most jobs for over seven years 10 years at a time. So in the last two and a half I' I've moved around a little bit and and that's been good but it's also I think the stage of career I'm at as well. So that's one thing that is topical for me and just thinking about the next stage of life as well. And the other thing is I'm you know very much in an environment where there's a lot of change and the demand is to you know be resilient in that change in that we're going through restructuring the business right now and that's really necessary for the financial stability of the organization which ultimately will be really good but it's this challenge of how do you navigate you know my role as chief people officer taking care of people through that process but making these really tough calls as well

knowing knowing ultimately and what I try to keep my eye on is that thinking about what the future so there probably two things that are very topical for me right now

the first one because that sounds nice nice and meaty so it's really about

so obviously you've had your two co roles you've done a bit bit of a side kind of hustle you've got the people off role

and you're trying to figure out like like what's next right

um

tell us the background like how did you get to your first CEO role how did you get to the CEO of a core

yeah that's so it's a really interesting story I've I've been very fortunate in my career I start out at the beginning. I had not really intended to work in hospitality and travel and tourism. I finished university. I was thinking about going in media and communications. That was sort of what I hoped to do. But I got to Sydney, needed a job and I got a fabulous opportunity uh working in a Sheran hotel and that was just to basically

So it was luck was luck

just covering the bills. Right.

Most of our careers happen by luck. I reckon

they do and I remember there's a couple of things I remember. I had no experience in the field at all. I started out in food and beverage and it was just luck. They needed people who were kind of like extroverts or basically a theme bar where we would and they were going to teach us the skills and I think that's the great thing about the industry that I've been in the last 30 odd years is you can still learn. It's one of those ones where you know having the education is important has definitely helped me along the way but there's so much on the job training. There's so much you can learn. So that's how I sort of fell into the industry and um I just honestly I just fell in love with it.

Why do you think that's a thing in hospitality, but it's like that's not a thing in most other industries? Like there's a very heavy training growth like you've got dedicated trainers, right? You've gotces.

Yeah. You rarely see that in any in any any other industry. Well, why is that?

Well, I think if you think about who like we have a very big workforce that is frontline, so working in your restaurants, your hotels, at the front desk, those sorts of things. And a lot of that workforce actually comes through their either part-time university students or they might be people who you know have not had the privilege of having a tertiary education. So to bring them in to the business you you know we need to train them up. We have to scale them up.

The work you give them is actually quite repeatable right and it's easy to document. It is. And then what happens is that you know people a bit like me you kind of fall in love with the industry or you you know de you know you're really good at that technical skill whether it's in housekeeping or food and beverage and then you get the opportunity okay why don't you supervise a group of those people and that's ultimately what happened to me. Then I started supervising then I went into managing eventually I then transitioned into human resources. I went back and studied.

What made you go into human resources? What pulled you there?

Yeah that's a great question. When I started out working in hotels, I was always the person who would train the new person who came in. I'd write the standard operating procedures. I just really loved the idea, I think, of being part of people's development just from the very very beginning. And I saw it as an opportunity to kind of, you know, share something that I'd learned because I'd been very, you know, privileged to come in and not have any background in this. So that's how I first came to get really interested in the learning development and the human resources. And I really in my life I have always really believed in this idea of strengths and the idea that every single person has strengths that can be utilized.

And I think that I saw an opportunity if I went into HR I could do that as my job. Like who wouldn't want to do this full-time? Like how cool is that to help people get into jobs where they can be successful like what was happening to me in my career. So that's what kind of sparked it in the beginning.

And which part of HR did you start? I actually well it's interesting stories in hotels around the world um usually there's like a 9:00 a.m. briefing where you come in, sit around with the general manager and everyone kind of says what's happening in the hotel, how many rooms we've got, VIPs coming in, etc. And the payroll person hadn't shown up. Now, this is the era, let's go back 30 years here where it's still paper time sheets, right? Yep.

And so they said, "Oh my gosh, the financial controller said, "We need someone can is anyone available just to come and help tally up the payroll time sheets."

And I was back studying HR part-time. And I was like, "Payroll paying people sort of." So I said look I'm free to help because I was doing a duty manager role for front office on that day. So that's basically how it started and then I never got out of the payroll role and they said to me when I do payroll and actually that's when I my first real negotiation around my career kicked in and I said I will cuz that's part-time but I want to do HR the other couple of days a week. They said yes to that which was great but then they wanted to lower my salary because I was coming out of operations as a venue manager manager on duty and the HR role effectively was paid less.

So again second negotiation kicked in and I said great you've agreed to the role I want but I don't want to drop my salary. Um and the good news is obviously they agreed and it was mutually beneficial.

What what gave you the courage to have that conversation because a lot of junior people early in their career just don't right they they're just too afraid to have that conversation.

Yeah. I think at the time and it wasn't because I felt like I was holding all the cards. So it wasn't around, you know, a lot of people go like that poker strategy and that for me it was just like this line in the sand like I had worked really hard in my career to become you know a venue manager then I was moving into front office and I did have an option at that point to go the general manager route but I really wanted to go into HR. I thought at the end of the day the most important thing was I got the job doing a part-time HR and I thought well let's have a go.

Something inside me just was like ask for it. The worst they can say is no.

If they said no would you have still have taken it?

I think I would have but I did hold out twice cuz I they did push back the first time and I remember the HR manager at the time was trying to talk me into doing this. She took me to lunch in a restaurant. We had a lot I still remember it to this day where we were sitting in that hotel and she tried to convince me and I said I really want to do it but can you just adjust the salary?

What was it percentage difference?

It was like it was nothing in those days that if she wanted to.

Yeah. Exactly. So it was a and I think look she was being responsible and I can appreciate that but

again I think I've got to be responsible myself. I'd worked hard to get to that salary point. I remember it. It was

and I I didn't want to go backwards.

I guess you're gainfully employed. you're in you're in the in the building anyway. You could always go back to your old role.

So, I just thought why not ask and look there's been many times when I haven't asked for things and I've regretted it in my career sometimes, but I think most of the time I will just have a go

and I just take that view like what is the worst thing that's going to happen?

Yeah.

They say no.

Okay. So, you got your HR gig, you're moving up in the ranks. How did you get the CEO role? How did that transition happen?

Okay. So, through my career, I moved through I eventually went into the HR space. in case I got out of operations. I specialized in that, but I'd always had this burning desire to have my own business and I think it's just my nature. So, I value freedom.

Your parents had their own business or you saw someone?

No, I just always I'm probably a bit stubborn and so I always had this idea and I just wanted to do something. It was doing the things I loved all the time.

And so, and valuing freedom is that you want to make your own choice in life.

Make my own choices. Make the decisions.

Is it is it a healthy disrespect towards authority as well?

A little bit. Yeah. I I was trying to think about how to say that and

well I reckon all I reckon all the CEOs have that

until they realize they still got a boss. They've still got a chair or a board somewhat international.

Yeah.

But but you get more control over your destiny, right?

Totally 100% it was that

frankly I just don't like being told what to do. That is the reality. Um but you're absolutely right. You have a boss no matter who you are. Even you know there's very

that's the unfortunate reality. Everyone's always got a boss.

So I started my own business. That was great. And um a core actually was one of my clients and I was doing some great work with them and I had been doing that business for about 10 years and I had a couple of contracts that I

What was your business? What were you doing? It

was called people reaching potential which is essentially what I was doing. So we were like a

training L & D.

Yeah. Learning and development. I became a qualified executive coach. We did a lot of transformation and culture work. So the work that I was doing in a core was helping set up their inclusion and diversity policy. I was executive coaching a lot of their executives. We were doing a strategic learning and development programs for them across their business. So that's what we were doing. And so they were one of my clients. I sold off a part of my business, basically some contracts to another consulting firm. And I sort of had this gap and I was like, what am I going to do? And someone said to me, gosh, do you know the HR roles up at a core and I I must have just for a split second like gone, that sounds interesting.

And at that point then I met the CEO at the time. Hit him.

Did you already know the CEO? I knew him not that well, but I remember the interview we had that was he was a great co so McGra and I remember the interview with him and at the end of the or during the interview he said to me Sarah can you be told no and it was one of those questions that stopped me. I was like I was like and I remember I said yes I can if I understand the why and so on and so on. And then at the end of the interview he said to you know he said do you have any questions for me? So I was the smartass and I said can you be told no and then that was the moment I think we clicked we laughed and yeah we worked together very successfully for seven you know you know six or seven years at a core so how did I get in there so then I joined as their head of people um for the Pacific region and I was very fortunate because I've been an entrepreneur because I had run P&Ls and come of operations he was just incredibly generous Simon who gave me you know be a director on this company for a core help with this transformation set up this part of the business.

So all the way along I was never just in this lane of doing HR cuz I've always had this thought.

I'm a business person first. HR is just my area of specialty. That's how I've always approached it. And he was a sort of leader as a CEO which I really respect. If you were capable and then he'd give you a project, he'd just give you more and more. So my come from an HR background.

No, he came through operations. He started out I think it was in housekeeping and hotels went into food and beverage and then worked his way up. So again he just had he was and he is incredibly driven one of the most driven people I've worked with. So he just had this desire to kind of be successful and so I suppose I was enabling him and I was helping him. So if I would deliver something for him he'd give me more. So how did I become the CEO? So he resigned effectively which was a total shock

into retirement or just not

he went and joined a casino firm as CEO for them and it was a total shock and he I was the first person he told and he told me and I was in total shock because I thought he was going to be there forever. I really hadn't thought about being the CEO of this company. We had talked about be going and being a CEO but it was always somewhere else. So he told me in the morning, it was about 8:30 in the morning. And in the same conversation about 5 minutes in, he said, "Are you going to apply for the job?" And I was like, "Literally, I've just heard you leaving, but of course I said yes." And so it was an arduous process.

Had you thought about that before, like the moment he told you he was resigning?

No. No. I sort of went through this process, you know, it's almost like a little grief process within the first 5 minutes. I was like the shock, the sad, the angry, and then I was like, "Okay." Um, and I was like, "Is this real?" So, I didn't really think about that. I just thought I had no concept of what it would mean for me at that point in time. Um, either applying for the job or getting a new boss. I was probably more shocked at the fact that he was leaving the company. But when he asked me, I don't think I said yes straight away. I think by the next day, I said yes. But, you know, obviously as soon as he said that, he suggested

it was in your mind. Yeah,

it was in my mind cuz I've always as you know I've run my own business. I've always wanted to be in a leadership role and so to have the opportunity to run the whole business like huge. I honestly never thought I would get the role but I thought I'll just throw everything out.

Australia, New Zealand or Apex straight away?

Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific regions. So we also had Hawaii in there as well.

And was Simon going to recommend you for the role?

It's interesting you say that. He was in an interesting spot because he, you know, we had a very senior executive team of say about 10 people and pretty much half of them applied for the job. So he was in a difficult position. I think that if he didn't think I was capable, he wouldn't have asked me and he would have been asked, "Do you think Sarah could do it?" And I think he would have said yes. But he wouldn't have done it. But I think he would have thought there was maybe a couple of people who should be considered. So So that's often rare for like half the exact team to be considered.

Yeah. normally. And who was decided? Was it a board or was it a global CEO who

No, we had a global global CEO of a core. Yeah, it was a combination of things. So, there was a real they they actually had an executive search firm based out of Paris because we're a French company actually run the search program. So, internal and external.

Yeah, I'm assuming they looked at it external, but definitely they put us through like I remember one of the sessions was one of those scenario interviews and you had to respond to it. They put it up on the screen and you had to answer qu I mean it was really intense.

Well, why would they do that? Like they already know you. You already worked there seven years. They've known all the other execs.

Yeah.

Why not just tap their internal networks to figure out who's the right person?

I don't I I think I was not the I wasn't the obvious choice.

Why was that?

I I don't

cuz you're not ops or

I think because I wasn't ops cuz I came out of HR and there was probably a sense of does she know how to run a P&L? What does she know about finance and so on. So I all of it so I think for as a fairness I think about French company very egalitarian in approach in general it was a fair process that was kind of put forward there was a number of people who put their hand up and so it was a fair process everyone went through so it's so difficult normally like local Aussie companies sure you'll have running dogs people you'll say apply but you actually know they're not going to get the job especially for a CEO right so critical and you've known these people for like 5 years

one of the people who applied well so I think if if Simon didn't think I was capable um of the job, he would have just said to me, Sarah, not the right time, etc. So, he he endorsed me without saying this is your person again cuz very fair and he knew there were other people who were going to put their hand up in the process. I think what was interesting and I remember the recruiters saying to me when I got through all this like testing and everything else they they actually recommended me to the global co because I had outperformed apparently on these assessments to what they expected and so their job they said to me is it's now our job to sell you as a candidate and then I got down to the final two flew to Paris in the middle of co and yeah was interviewed.

How long was that process from start from resigning leaving to you starting?

I would say at least 4 months.

4 months

at least. So he resigned I feel like it was in September. Worked out his notice period and then I started literally the day he left.

And were the cuz the exact team is realizing you know half are competing for this role. Was there still a veil of cordiality?

Yes, there was. one of the people who ended up applying. It's an it was an interesting situation cuz he was I in the HR role for this team. So I was their support. He wasn't put forward as one of the candidates. So I actually had to to go to global HR and recommend him.

That's ironic. Okay. So and how long were you the CEO of a call for? So I've been through a similar process where um I was kind of urbanized publicly listed company in the prop tech space. So our CEO they got rid of the CEO guy called Henry fantastic guy worked within two prior companies.

Um and they weren't sure who to give the role to. So there was like four of us that all wanted the role. The four in the exec team.

Y

um so my first job when I got it was to sack the other three people.

Wow. like proper Hunger Games cuz you're kind of like well these guys wanted the same role. They're actually my competitors cuz the board actually got us to properly compete for 12 months for the role without making it clear that one of us will get it but we all had to do our own little thing and do better than the than the other. So what was the tenure of your exec team after you joined cuz it's kind of hard work cuz you're their peer

now you're their manager. They're your comp they were your competition during this evaluation process.

Yeah.

How how did that work out? Well, it was an interesting because during the process it kept dwindling down. Some of them didn't get through certain stages and then it came down to the final two of who wasn't in my team was from another division.

Okay.

So, at that point they knew it was me. So,

you're the last person standing from the executive team.

I was the last person standing in the final two. So, at that point they were aware it was me or somebody else. They were obviously dealing with their own disappointment at that time. My view was that I wanted to try and keep as much as the team intact. One person left within six months, went and started their own business. Um,

how many people on your executive?

About eight.

Eight. Okay. So, four applied kind of thing. Okay.

Yep.

And so what I did then was that was in an operational role. So my strategy was there were other people in the team. I gave them more responsibility versus bringing people in. In hindsight, perhaps I should have made more change earlier, but a lot of these people were long tenured people um who, you know, in my mind had done a terrific job and were contributing. It's hard to know if they were ever really if everyone was 100% on board with what I was doing and the strategy.

And plus, it's hard. It's your first CEO role, such a huge organization. You've just gotten it. You don't want to go and axe half the people's strategy

cuz that that would look very bad. and you have all this knowledge walk out the door as well.

Yeah. And I think a big part of it was because I came from HR and a lot of what I'm about and who I'm about is about connecting people to their potential as I said and so these were people who are incredible contributors many a number of them still there and so there was no reason to make that change and I think you know ultimately this was the first year out of co as well for me as CEO and we had an absolute cracking year. We hit every

traveling again, right?

Everyone was traveling again. We hit every KPI won and both of my years we we did that. So,

did your exact team see you as an authority figure? Like the ones that were your peers?

That's a good question and probably one you would have had to ask. You'd have to ask them, I suppose. But I didn't feel that they were I I do feel that they were supportive. I do feel that. But ultimately, you know, people sitting around that table wanted the job that I had

and they everybody thinks they're the best person for that role.

Of course, as I would have. And it was interesting. I remember when the global CEO actually rang and offered me the job without me asking. He said, "Would you like to know why I've chosen you?" And I said, "Yes."

And he said there was one question he asked me in the interview when I was in Paris. And that question was will you leave if you don't get the job and my answer was no you know I care about the team I will see them through and so on and that's the one not the only reason but he pointed that out as a reason

differentiator between who else he was looking at

exactly

so and look I don't have any I I actually have no regrets around my time um at a core I loved it and it was a time of great change. We're coming out of co the company was making some global, you know, strategic decisions which I knew were coming. So yeah, I'm just very grateful. But but I learned a lot. And I think it's

in the same situation perhaps I would have looked at the team, reshuffled things a little bit more, made a bit more change.

But it's hard. It's your first year of right like you wouldn't have known. You would have known. And so how did that come to an end? What what happened after two and a half years?

Yeah. So the company um strategically made a decision to separate into two divisions. So the luxury um luxury division and what we call premium midscale economy. So I had been responsible for both luxury premium midscale economy and as CEO down here in the Pacific and effectively they were put they were creating a luxury division.

So there have been two CEOs or fridge division.

Yeah basically. And so my I was left then with the remit of the premium midscale economy which was quite large here in the Pacific but instead of reporting to the global CEO it would be reporting to a CEO based out of the Middle East and ultimately

he was like the global mid-level.

Exactly. Got it.

And ultimately in the Middle East in Asia and the Pacific they placed a chief operating officer. So the role of CEO in its own right with the same scale didn't exist. So that was a redundancy which I honestly thought I would never see in my lifetime and is quite rare but and people say wow does that ever happen to CS? Well it does when you work in a large company because you could consolidate divisions and things like that. So that's how that change came about.

Did you have the choice to get that co COO role or

or was that not never a thing for you?

No.

Was that not a thing for you?

Well I think it's also from the company perspective as well. Right. I had a full remitt as CEO looking after both divisions and you know I you know that was something that you know was it was still a significant change in scope and reporting and those sorts of things. So I think from the company's point of view it was also about you know putting more operators into those roles as well. But for me it just would have been hard to step back to COO in that organization. Now that's not and which is interesting right because now I'm in a CPO chief people officer role but I think um I also thought maybe it's just time I'd been with the core seven and a half years

manager in the Middle East like your potential manager in the Middle East that global global mid-level CEO what he her what was their personality like

yeah he very much concentrating the decision-m in the Middle East and so it

go from having freedom to executing something.

Yeah. If you think about what I talked about in the beginning like total freedom to centralized, right? And so what was also happening was that and my role exiting was really the start of a lot of change. So the division down here has gotten a lot smaller. Most of the resources are now based out of Asia or in the Middle East.

And were you not quite ready for the global role for the global middle level market?

I'm sure. Yeah. I think you know again the comp you know I had been in my role for you know just at that point two years do I think I was ready and capable I do believe I could have done that um from the company's point of view

they might not have seen enough yet right

they probably had not seen enough at that time yeah I would say

it's a shame how companies lose talent because of restructures like they make sense in the perfect sense in Excel spreadsheet right perfect sense I've got a high level person here I'll get two people that are more operators more economical be closer to the action will consolidate decision making somewhere else.

Yeah. And I think too the other thing company and I understand why companies need to make change because obviously I had been there for seven years or you know more than seven years and so I suppose from their perspective Australia and our region in the Pacific was also very independent and so the company was making a change to be much more centralized more consolidated more you know top down decisions. So

if you have an independent region with a phenomenally independent senior CEO I'm sure.

Yeah.

And you want to consolidate and get control back at the mothership or some other part of the world.

100%.

It's a different model. Right.

It is it's a totally different model. So the short answer is I think I of course I believe in my skills, my ability and what I've been able to achieve in my career that I can do that and I've gone on to do some other things since then but the company I understand why they were going in a different direction and you know knowing the sort of person I am that wouldn't have been an easy adjustment. It wouldn't be right.

No, a lot of people have said to me since Sarah you know the the new structure which you know I hope they're very successful because I still have a lot of shares in a core so I want them to be very successful. I love the people who are there and I have, you know, I've only got fondness for the time that I've worked there and, you know, if there was an opportunity in the future, I'd love to go back at some time. So, but I think the sort of person I am, I'm highly independent. You know, I'm very ambitious.

Been happy.

I would not have been happy in that model. And if you've got the choice of a redundancy and you back yourself is a role you're not unhappy with which by the way most people would have taken that role because they would be too afraid to go and go out in the open and go find another job.

Yeah.

So you did the redundancy hit hit your bank account.

Yes.

Um do you walk out straight away or is it a transition group?

No. I was very fortunate because I was the first role to be going as part of this transition and then I knew the next layers were going to start moving. I h I was able to have a num a number of months where I just knew. So that was really helpful. I think I had about eight weeks where I knew and one of my colleagues knew and that was just a time of adjustment like just I was st I actually went and got something.

How did you made sure you cared during that time? Like your heart was still in it.

Okay. You had just been told by your company that they're breaking up with you.

Yeah.

Yeah. They want you to stick around and take care of the kids for 3 months

because it was a it was a it was a long transition. He I just really cared. I think what I said to the global CEO still stood like when he asked me that question when I was in sitting there in Paris and he said if you don't get the job will you leave and quit now most people would have said yes in that moment right but for me and I've always thought about this and even in my current role I think but I do there are all these other people right and it's not like I've had a bad experience I've had a great experience

but not getting a promotion is different to being made redundant.

Yeah. Being made of inductance, someone has consciously said, "We actually don't want you around anymore."

Yeah.

But hang around for 3 months and help us clear the throat.

And regardless, you'll get unless you got a golden handshake or something.

Yeah. Well, to be fair, they Well, how it actually unfolded was they they did say to me I could go earlier. I'm actually the one who said, "I need time and the team need time to transition." So, that's actually because I knew this was going to be a huge shock to the team because I'd been there. I was spearheading even in my people and culture role before I went to the co role our major initiatives things like that. So this was and it was it was quite celebrated when I went into the role and and I say that from the point of view was people were like wow a HR person going into a CEO role even though I had this operational background.

Um there was one element and then obviously female there wasn't a lot of female leaders honestly I knew there was going to be a lot of shock. It's interesting because I actually was told when I was overseas and so I didn't even tell my husband until I landed back in the country. So I was in a country.

How many days did you have between those two events? um it would have been about 3 or 4 days. I was very fortunate that I had a colleague with me at the time at a conference where I was advised and you know she was just a great support. She knew I spoke with her and I just knew I couldn't tell my husband on the phone and I wanted to do it in person. But the reality is I am a very I'm a very I'm I have a lot of empathy. I really deeply care about things. But I do have a lot of strength because actually when I was told I went straight back into the conference and sat there and listened to the conference and the next morning I turned up at breakfast and said hello to some of the global leaders who knew that I'd been told that I was leaving and I just I just that was part of getting through.

It was kind of it's not an armor cuz I don't want to sound like I'm so tough and that but it's some it's a way of coping in a way. I just put the

okay I just put the you know the armor on in a way got through it and I just thought okay

I just went into what's the next logical step.

Well why not call your husband straight away that's what most people do call their partner as soon as something really good or really bad happens.

I wanted to be in a position when I spoke to him to say it was going to be okay. And so

is that cuz you didn't want to have to counsel him and yourself.

That's right. Okay.

Yeah. I think because you know I was in a foreign country a long way away. there was nothing he could do. He was there with our children. Um, we were going through a transition. We just bought a new house. Like there was a whole lot of like we were literally moving in on the Monday. Um, and so there was a lot of things. I know it's I just I was more concerned about how he would react and and that than me. And I wanted to be able I just wanted to be the I wanted to be in a position to say he was going to be okay. And so between when I was told by the time I landed on Friday, I had a pretty good financial deal on the table.

Okay. Yeah, that I'd negotiated.

You negotiated more. Thank you.

I Yeah. Go back to negotiation again. I had a pretty good deal on the table that Friday enough that I could say to him, "This has happened." Shock and all.

We've got this many months of runway to

We've got this. But I still hadn't finished my negotiation. So I said to him, "This is just now." And then I

This is the first offer.

This is Well, it's probably the second offer at that point. It was enough that, you know, I I felt comfortable.

How did you do that? How did you go back and get more money for redundancy? Um, I just pushed for what I thought was fair and right. The the reality is I was the first person and they really couldn't make the other changes unless my role was not there. And then that's where else they got the time.

What was their alternative? Let's say you said, "No, I'm not happy with the deal. I want x% more." And they say no.

Like what can they do?

Would have been a standoff. Yeah. You mean

they'd have to then transition you to a more junior role. All those things they have like legal consequences, right? And look,

they could have done a one-sided redundancy, right? You're redundant. It's not negotiation here, Sarah, here's the package. Please leave.

Yeah. And so I mean, I suppose I'm fortunate in that I'm what I would say to everyone is, you know, whatever change you're going through and transition, no matter how wonderful a company is, you know, get advice, understand what you're entitled to. But I also, look, I I want to say this about a core, they were generous and I and they do take care of people. This wasn't a Sarah, you haven't done a great job and you're out. You know, it's interesting to say breaking up. They are breaking up with you, but you know, you can be generous in the spirit and which they were

cuz it was them, not you, right?

Exactly. I mean, the reality was what they were doing made sense and I knew that and I just put I just said to them, this is what I think is fair and I, you know, was very forthright in what I thought was right.

How many iterations did you have to go back and forth?

I think there was three or four.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so rare cuz I reckon I reckon 90 95% of the CEOs I talk to don't negotiate for themselves.

Yeah.

I reckon the reason I've done well in life is is 75% is negotiation, 25% is performance.

Yep.

But most people just don't do that negotiation. They don't feel the confidence they have. They don't feel they have got the confidence or the ability to do so.

And I think it's interesting when you talk about confidence because I feel like I feel the fear and I do it anyway. So, it's a funny thing around is it confidence or is it just it's like you know when you're lying in bed and you think I've got to get out of bed and you kind of go 1 2 3 you get out right or you have the choice just to lay there. Something in me in those moments just says have a go and before I've even really thought about it properly I've said it or I've done it. I leap in maybe it's almost like yeah that the physical action before I've really thought about the consequence because I think when you start thinking you go all the things that could go wrong or you go oh what if they take the offer off that you could think all sorts of things and it's a funny one like it's it's one where you actually have almost no power in the situation objectively speaking.

Yeah.

They can actually do whatever they want. There's legislation that says here's the minimums.

Yeah. Yet you still did well out of it.

Yeah. And so I think um again a core though you know it is a great it's it's an incredible company and they do take care of their people and so I'm really grateful for that. So I was very fortunate um with who my employer was as well at the time

and you know I wanted it to be amicable they wanted to be amicable and so part of the reason I stayed for that period of time was I said to them I think I and the team we all need time to

adjust to the idea and so that's how I ended up staying for those few months and working through it wasn't necessarily can you do this for us cuz it suits us it actually was me saying I would like to stay and help the team through and myself to be honest. So by the time the announcement, I think I knew in it might have been October or November, it didn't get announced till early December. By that stage, I'd had time to process it. I went and got myself an executive coach who I did sessions with so I could kind of work through it. So by the time it actually became public in the company, I'd already processed I'd already gone through all that.

And so then I was able to kind of just enjoy the next few months wrapping up and doing the things I wanted to. And I started thinking about what's next.

So talk to me about this personal transition. So you you finished uh last day, they've disabled your email access. The money's in the account.

Yeah.

What do you what do you do next?

Oh my gosh, that was amazing. So again, I'd had plenty of time to think about what I was going to do and I I just I have such a long list of things that I wanted to do. So the first thing I did was I finished I think it was a Thursday and in March you know the first or whatever the next day on a Friday went to a conference with future women and I gave a keynote speech and I thought this is sort of the start of kind of this new whatever I'm going to do. So that's a Friday and then on the Monday I flew to Teeour Lee.

Where about that?

Um so just off Australia so um East Teeour where my niece runs a charity there building, you know, trying to change education in Teeour. And so I went and spent a week with her and these incredible little kids who have, you know, like she's building these schools out of nothing. She's in her early 20s. She's given up her PE job to go private equity job to go there. So I went from Taylor Swift on the Thursday night. That was my last event at a core stadium. Friday I spoke at a conference. Monday I flew to Teeour and I was up in the mountains in a place called S and with this school that's half falling down that she's repairing and she's creating this incredible opportunity for all of these children and the community and employing people.

So I did that and so basically within my first two weeks I'd had three incredible experiences all very different. And so again it was like putting myself in an uncomfortable situation. So, I'm going to learn. And in a way, you're probably not thinking too much about what's next. And then I went I so I did multiple holidays for the for the first period of time. And it was the first time it was it was very liberating not having to respond to your phone all the time. I mean, with a European company, there was often late night calls, things like that. So, I enjoyed that.

It also becomes a big part of your identity.

Yeah.

That you're Sarah, you're the CEO of a call.

Yeah.

You're important. People need to call you. People need to ask you questions. Yeah, I've been through a transition once in my career. I was with a company called Starwood Hotels and I was kind of on this trajectory and that's when I decided I'd start my own business and so I I resigned from there and started my own business. That was really insightful. So that's what you know 20 odd years ago now but I had you know I was in the head of HR role exactly what you just said you were you were kind of important because you had this title, you held this position, people called you etc. Suddenly you start your own business. you work out pretty quickly what are the real relationships and what are not.

So, I knew the minute I didn't have the CEO title at a core, there's going to be certain people who were not going to, you know,

never talk to you ever again.

Ever talk to me ever again,

unless they need a reference.

Unless they need a reference to call again. Yes. Or they need

Oh, they probably just text you for a reference.

Because I'd already been through that, I'd already reconciled that in my mind. And because I had my own business for that 10 years, I built up a business. And I worked out then actually my who I am, my personal brand has to be very different to my company and my title. I created separation. So my whole business was basically me. I had a couple people working for me, but I remember the first time I got a contract when someone actually, you know, you put in your proposal like, "Oh my god, I wonder if they'll pay that money just for me. Who am I? I've got nothing behind me. I'm just Sarah." And I remember when that first contract came in, when I had my own business, it was the most amazing feeling.

And that's when I knew I would always be able to turn my hand to something. I could always create something for myself. And that's when that real belief kicked in about what I was, you know, doing and offering and I had something to value. The other thing

a lot of people experience that evidence, but that doesn't correlate into belief in them themselves.

It's a great question cuz you know what? I often I'm not sure that I am different to anybody else. I actually don't think I am. when I was CEO or or the roles I've had and people go, "Oh my gosh, that's Sarah Derry." And I go, "Who's Sarah?" Because I'm just Sarah. Like that's how I see myself. But I think over time I've come to realize that I do have, you know, some, you know, unique things about me. And it's probably the combination of incredibly driven and competitive but really deeply caring and empathetic and want to do things with, you know, a human putting human connection at the center of it. And I think because and I also think I'm very fortunate.

I grew up with this idea of kind of giving back and generosity and you know you're as good as everybody else. And I'm very fortunate my grandparents shared that with me. my mother. So I think I grew up with that and I think from a young age I there was a moment in high school where someone identified a talent in me which was public speaking and up to that point I was a pretty average student to be honest but once someone said to me Sarah you're an amazing public speaker and the trajectory of my life changed because I had this self-belief in one area suddenly my maths got better not immediately but over the next few years then I mean maybe up to that point I would never have gone to university.

So for me there's been moments where people have kind of said you know you're good at this and then that has led me to believe in myself. That's that

and it's stayed very and also because I didn't have to be great at everything.

I think that's the other thing people think you've got to be great at everything and you've got to improve your weaknesses etc. Whereas I just think well you know people have different skills and strengths. That's it. It's so simple and you just got to leverage that. I mean, I don't have to be great at doing what you're doing. I just need to be great at what I do.

And I think over time, if you look at the evidence around you, you know that you can make a difference that you know that you and I'm good at making decision. I know the things I'm good at.

Because the point I'm making though, it's most people experience the evidence, but they don't experience the internalization that you did.

Why do you think that is? Cuz

most people don't attribute success to them.

How do we change that? I think it's a deeply human thing. I think it's a deeply human thing. Probably evolved when we're in a tribe, right? Tall poppy. No one no one in a tribe should believe they can survive by themselves because then they won't need the tribe. They won't stick it together. Everyone actually needs to feel a tiny bit insecure in every part of their life. It probably works well for survival, doesn't work well for happiness.

Yeah. But I reckon that's just a deeply human thing that's hardwired into us.

Yeah. And I can and I can understand that. And this is not me saying it. I think I said earlier, it's not that I don't feel fear. It's not that I don't have moments of insecurity. It's just that there's something it's like almost a physical push sometimes just to do it. Like, so I was in a board meeting this morning. I was anticipating there might be some challenges around things. And in my head, I had already gone into that board meeting not knowing how I was exactly going to respond, but I had my there could be a moment today where I have to lean in or be firm about something or disagree with something. Obviously, it'll be the board's decision, but I was I was kind of, you know, readying myself for that moment.

There is I do there's something Yeah, you you're right. there is something sort of there that is just kind of I talk a lot about um and I've been writing a book for the last couple of years which you know I'll get out at some point as well and I talk a lot about core confidence and I really try to work on this idea of you know confidence is sometimes like a thermometer someone says you're great at something so your confidence goes up someone says you're not it goes down whereas I'm like okay what at the what's at the core there what can I hold on to that means I'm not going up and down it's just marginally moving but ultimately I still have that level of It's hard, but it t and it takes work.

Did someone model that behavior for you?

Well, I just think earlier in my career and my life probably more than anything, there was people who had a lot of challenge. Like I grew up in a single parent family. So I saw my mother, you know, take herself back to university, buy the first home, you know, on on low incomes and things like that

back in those days, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So I saw that kind of level of resilience. So, I think that I think also my my grandparents on my mother's side and my father's side as well, you know, they didn't, you know, no one a very working-class background and things like that. So, I think just seeing people make do with little and still be very happy, I think.

And could it be perhaps if your mother went through that, she was very focused to make sure that you were self-reliant?

Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think so. I definitely think I mean I and my grandmother and my mom would always say, you know, you know, earning your own money was really important. So, I think you're probably right. It's probably those messages that you're getting early in career and also this message that I did get very early from my mother and her mother that no matter who you are, you're as important as anybody else. Like there was didn't matter if you were talking to the Queen of England, you are and I don't know where they got those ideas, probably their grandparents as well. But that was pretty powerful to think that cuz I remember sitting around the dinner table like telling people, you know, my parents had a dinner party or whatever that I was going to be the prime min first female prime minister of Australia.

I don't know. There's part of me that, you know, from my dad and my mom's side, there's certainly personality traits that have have sort of come together,

like with all of us. Yeah.

Fair enough. Okay. So, you're out of a call. You're doing a couple of things, having some holidays.

Yeah. Yeah.

How long before you start your next role? How long was that going?

Um, it was about five nearly six months.

About six months. And And why not to another huge CEO role, right? Like why not? I've done 21,000 people onto a large organization,

bigger penal, because that's what most CEOs think

because I I agree. And so that's why I I wouldn't rule that out in the future. But I had in that time I had off, I had time to think. And to be frank with you, I was interviewing. I did a lot of interviews. I met a lot of recruiters. I met a lot of people. I went out and network. I mean, can I say one the reason we met was during this process. I had so many incredible people who would go, "My gosh, Sharah, you got to meet this person." And that's how we met, right? So it's through those introductions. So whilst I was holidaying, it wasn't just doing that. I was meeting as many people as I could and recruiters.

I was interviewing for different roles. And so I was going for roles and I would kind of get through and go, "No, this is this is not exciting me." And I got to a point where I was offered a role and I was just like, I actually can't work for the group CEO. Like I had decided.

And were they CEO roles or

Yeah. So a couple of them were CEO roles, some of them were CPO roles, some there's a variety of roles in there. So during that process of interviewing and kind of working out what I wanted to do, I got very clear in my own mind about what I wanted to do next. And so the things that were most important to me were number one, who I work for. So my direct boss, that's the most important thing to me. I mean, I was very, very clear about that because I've had some great experiences in my career and we've all had not great experiences. But as I was going through the interview process and networking and talking to people, number one, who I work for, I was super clear about that.

Number two, I wanted to do work where I felt I could make an impact and I can contribute. That doesn't mean being a not for profofit. It could be in a really commercial role, but I wanted to know that my skills and that were going to be valuable and I could make a difference. And then after that came title and everything else. So that's why I wasn't number one was something else. So

yeah, ask me about

as a strong independent person, love control, healthy disrespect to healthy disrespect to authority, which I totally get.

Yeah. Yeah.

You suddenly found out you actually had none of that working for somebody else.

Yeah. Maybe

maybe maybe number one was a it was an environment where you experienced control.

Yeah, maybe that that could be part of it. I think I was seeking if I was going to work for somebody else, it had to be a special kind of person. You're probably right.

That you could work with that I could work with.

They would not mandate stuff to you, would it work with you, explain stuff to you?

That's probably true. And so that's why the who I work for was most important. And the title of the job I had became so not important um because I could

Well, why were you going for the group CEO roles? Like you you had a cracker job. You met you made your KPI running a huge organization

like most hotel hospitality companies would would love to get someone like you.

There's a couple of things that were going on there. A call was the largest in Australia by a long way. So to stay within the industries I was in, I really needed to go overseas. And

I guess there's only three or four jobs at the co level industry, whatever the hotel chains are.

Yeah. And and that and the one I had was the biggest.

Okay. And so there's that.

And going overseas wouldn't work family wise.

Not at that family wise at that moment in time. My daughter was just starting university, my eldest, and my youngest was about to go into year 11. And so it wasn't an option. Now, you know, I'm now on the, you know, second year uni, third year uni sort of with my daughter.

You do a bit less.

Yeah. Daughter, the youngest daughter's about to, you know, finish. So I think if an opportunity came up, I would now. So there was and again I honestly I had not made a lot of those decisions in my career. I was always it's not the career was first but I always tried to be there at the important moments. When I had my own business I had a lot of flexibility and but when I went into the rest of the career I mean I was traveling a lot. I mean if I think about my career for 30 years I've probably traveled every week for 30 years. I mean this is the first time

I really don't have to travel if I don't want to. It's home.

I'm I I can be home every night if I want to.

So, and I think I because I had this time. I suppose it gives you that perspective.

Honestly, I've just not been someone who's really been I'm not that worried about title. Now, here's what I say about that though. Once you've had the title, you're not worried about it, right?

But it's hard to go back. And as a CEO or an ex CEO,

I always feel a bit funny recruiting someone to a CFO or chief people CTO role that's been a CEO before.

Yeah.

Cuz my initial reaction paranoid CEOs would be like that person wants a stepping stone to my job and that might be completely okay, right? If in 3 years I I want to transition to something else, I need a good um person to come up at some point. And the truth is I think that did impact me that because when I was looking at some of the CEO roles or the CPO roles, big CPO roles like that would have been the equivalent of my CEO role at a core in in unrelated industries like big big firms. I think that did work as a disadvantage because in my mind I was really clear who I wanted to work for interesting work title didn't matter as long as I could have a bit of freedom make an impact do those sort of things

cuz people wouldn't have believed title doesn't matter they wouldn't believe it

they wouldn't but but I that's why I always say you know it it does matter cuz that's why I would never begrudge someone who's coming up and they go you know I want the GM title or I want this of course you do I wanted it the difference for me was I've had that experience so I did do a um a one year sprint as a CEO after I left the core. That was the first role I took.

And what was that organization?

It was called um Homewoodbound and it was a not for-p profofit based out of Melbourne, but it was a global initiative to get women with a STEM background um into leadership roles and they were running expeditions, leadership expeditions to Antarctica.

Fantastic cause, but can I put to you, was that a waste of your talent? Cuz I feel like you could do that with your eyes closed. It was a bit and I did I was a part-time

that's why you were there 12 months.

That's why I was there 12 months and part time and then what I what I was trying to do is you know help the organization get into its next phase. So I learned a lot in that experience. It wasn't something I could do 5 days a week and that's when I at the same time started my own business. I was doing this board work and other things as well. I was actually writing my book at that time and so I was very fortunate that they were very supportive of me doing that in a part-time capacity. Why consider that instead of just going for that big CO role or was that role?

Everybody asked me that when I

was timing wrong or

Yeah, I think that you have to be very patient to wait for the right role. And I think, you know, it might have been another 6 or 12 months on to landing the right thing. And, you know, financially I could have done that, but something inside of me was kind of like, you know, try something Sarah, have do something. And I do remember when I said yes, a lot of people were like, "Wow, are you sure?" And the reality of that was whilst I really enjoyed my 12 months there, I learned a lot and you know, I went on this incredible Antarctica adventure with some incredible women.

It doesn't fit on the trajectory that you're on.

No. And so, which is hence where I ended up where I am now because I think through that process, I did work out that I'm best served right now with where I'm at in the commercial space. And how I ended up where I am now was Simon the ex CEO that I worked for a decor recommended me to the CEO

because he went to the casino space. Right.

That's right. So he'd worked with the CEO at the Star Entertainment Group and he recommended me to work there and that if it wasn't for him saying you have to work for this guy Steve McCann who ended up being like learned a huge amount with him. um I probably wouldn't have entertained the job to be perfectly honest with you because I really trusted Simon and he said I think they need you Sarah you know your expertise because Simon knew what I was capable of doing at that point I was thinking okay I've tried the not for profofit this is definitely not me

I need to go commercial and honestly you couldn't go more commercial than going into the casino industry

and I did think I could make a difference there so

but is it I mean I'm sure it's a fantastic role as CO but it just still feels like a waste is your talent. or is it sometimes a timing thing? It's what you had in front of you.

Yeah. No, I don't think it's about what you just have in front of you. Because for me, I really had I I just was really wanting to work with people who are going to be able to work with me with, as we talked about, you know, the style I wanted to work with. And honestly, I really care about the hospitality, travel, and tourism industry. And with where the company's at, you know, I know that my role is pivotal in that business staying sustainable. And so there's 8 and a half thousand people's jobs at stake there. And it's not because of me they're going to stay there. They're all doing incredible work on the front lines.

But if I can do something to be part of turning that around, and honestly, I did think it was one of the biggest turnarounds in Australian history and to be part of that. And the other reason it was attractive to me was I've never done ASX company experience. Um I sat on a board of a small casino reef casino and that was ASX listed but I did feel like there was a gap there in my knowledge around the ASX. So that was the other reason to do it. Thank you for saying I'm destined for greatness. Uh maybe and but I don't think that you know the chapters are not over yet. I think that my you know I've been there a year now.

We'll see what happens in the next six to 12 months. There are some really good people there that I want to help through this process and be part of that. But yeah, I've got some I've got some thoughts about what's next. But I think, you know, if there was an incredible opportunity to go in as a CEO somewhere, the right type of organization where I could make a difference, absolutely, I'd go for it.

But I'm wondering if I'd just create that greatness for myself. That's where I'm at.

Common thing that happens to a lot of CEOs. you finish up somewhere, there might only be a dozen of your roles every year, right?

Yep.

Uh in your industry, there might only be like two or three.

Um and sometimes you have to wait 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months to find the right role.

That's right.

So a common thing CEOs think about, you know, and in that transition, do I take a lesser role? to go back to a role that was more technical expertise, you know, CFO, CTO, head head of people culture or CPO in your case, whilst I wait for the next one to come along and maybe I'll be really happy and really effective in this role anyway will keep me out of trouble. I'll keep learning something. I'll enjoy myself. How did you make that choice to go back to a technical expertise and not to

How did I make the choice? I think I I just weighed it up and I just thought genuinely what was more important to me was to have freedom within a role than to be the person who was responsible for everything.

So you had the control that you needed.

Yeah.

And you got that. And how did you test that? Cuz in the interview process, everybody lies to everybody.

Yeah. Employees lie to

I had a very interesting interview process. It's a bit like what I said with Simon when you know it was like one interview he asked me this question I've never been asked before. Then I asked it back to him. When I met with the group CEO

I went in there prepared for the usual you know interview questions that it's not what happened. He spent 45 minutes telling me being completely transparent about the organization completely open. I almost didn't say anything for the whole interview and that was it. And I walked away from that going like that was pretty impressive to just instinctively just lay everything out completely honestly and transparently and trust me that I'm not going to go away and do something with that information. And then I spoke to one of his leaders, so one of the other executives and talked to them and by talking to them that gave me the confidence that the person I'd met and the group CEO was that kind of leader.

Yeah. So that's that's how I made that decision. I based it on the person and the experience I had with them I thought was very authentic and then I went and obviously you know checked him out with a few other people as well

a few third party references totally totally got to do that and probably helpful that you got a reference from Simon seemed to have known him had a lot of a lot of trust in Simon as well so that that would have made it much easier as well

yeah definitely

yeah and I guess what you also have is like you have a lot more roles in you right so this might not be the last role you'll do this for x number of years make a great impact something internal, external, you'll find something else.

I think a lot of people don't think that ahead. They don't see things in that long arc of time yet.

Yeah.

I think one thing I've always thought cuz I've always loved working and not everybody loves working. Like even when we're doing the toughest things, I've sort of thought, well, it's a privilege to be able to be here and, you know, be part of all of that. So, I've always thought that I was going to work for a long time. I think what the, you know, the what

Well, why is that? just because I've loved working and it's given me a lot of satisfaction and because I think you know I felt like I've had a lot of success like I feel like you know of course everyone has failures along the way not everything's gone perfectly but I feel like I've had a lot of success and so I think I just I've just thought I would always enjoy that but I think now with I think one of the things I'm really grateful for with the break with a core because look the reality is I would have stayed with a core had that decision not been made and I'm not sure I would have had the growth I've had in the last 2 and 1/2 years that I've had if that didn't happen.

So I've actually also reflected on that it was the right timing and I've actually learned and grown a lot as a person and I think I'm actually better for it. So I think that has also made me realize that you know time is not infinite and there's many other things I want to do in this world. And so I'd always had this idea like I'd always had my idea earlier in my group of having my own business. I've done that. I know I can do it again. I always had this idea like I had a book I wanted to write. And so I've got the book in draft form. I just haven't had any additional time to finish it off.

So next up I've kind of I really want to maybe I'm going to be CEO of my own large organization and start something up again and then the foundation of it could be a book which is all about a certain style of leadership that I want to share and you know that could be part of it you know and I think I'm also at this point and I've started uh you know as a founder of an organization called women that I mentioned earlier. I just want to give back because I'm very grateful for everything I've got. And so there's there's something inside of me too that you know I clearly get a lot of satisfaction about you know helping other people.

I think that's how I ended up in the industry by default.

Yeah.

Cuz you are you're not

there's a service industry.

It's a service industry you know and someone said to me you're not a servant but you're in service to people. And that was a game changer because you can imagine I left university was going to go and do communication marketing and then my family said what are you doing working in restaurants? Isn't that a waste of your time? I think you asked me that question a few times like isn't that a waste? Aren't you doing but for me it made sense. I I don't know. There's something I'm just really clear. I'm I don't feel like I have to be caught up in someone else's paradigm of what it should be. And to be honest, can I say this as well?

I think as a female we're not that hung up on titles. we're not that hung up on, you know, you know, I'm very competitive. I want to win. But, you know, it's not all about that. And I and maybe that isn't true. I know there's a lot of men who also maybe would feel that way, but I do think that, you know, I've met a lot of CEOs and people and I think there's this it's it's who they are as a person. None of this is actually who I am as a person.

I think what it is I think what is it,

especially for guys, that's all I can speak to. That's

um the haven't had the operation. So, um, for guys, a title represents power.

Yeah.

It's that you're controlling something. You've got power over something. And that's why for a lot of BS, titles are super important, cuz that that uh donates my worth to everybody else.

Yeah.

Like, if you ask a guy to introduce themselves, it's never I'm a dad. It's almost never I'm a dad first. It's always, oh, I do this job in this company. Or when guys meet over barbecue, oh, what do you do for a living? They often ask about family later on. It's often about what do you do for income first.

Yeah. And I think because I think I've been really fortunate in my childhood that I described to you and then the experience I had in high school when someone said, "Hey, you're good at something like this one thing." I think there's something there around I I'm really I think I've said this a couple. I'm really clear about who I am and what I'm about. Like if people say to me, "What do you stand for?" I know. Now then you then you could ask the question, "Well, you know, when do you not live up to that, Sarah?" or you know when do you question the career choices you made or the companies that you're working with do they meet that you know and sometimes they don't cuz life isn't perfect but I think what happened is that in my in my early career that moment when I started my own business and there were people who didn't pick up the phone and then there were people this was amazing who were kind of like acquaintances hardly knew them they were the ones who gave me the work

who did the effort yeah

who went the extra smile helped me, you know, all those sorts of things. So I think then I learned, wow, gosh, you have to and then because when I got that first contract with someone bought from me as Sarah Derry, I started getting this sense of self. And then when I was leaving a core, I made a very conscious decision. A friend of mine, Stacy Ashley, who's an incredible leadership expert, said to me when I told her that I was leaving and no one else knew, she said, "Sarah, your your who you are right now, your brand is a bit too deeply tied to a core. start working to shift that. And so the last few months as I was living a core, I would, you know, whether it was LinkedIn or other things, I was what I was speaking about, I made it more about what I'm about, my personal story, what I care about, not about my employer.

So I think I feel like, you know, I can stand on my own two feet. It's just who I am.

Couple questions though. So the last two and a half years have been great. You've learned a lot and it will probably give you that separation you need to find the next great thing in your career which I'm sure is inevitable.

Would you have had the insight to make that choice yourself?

No.

Definitely not. And that's why like when I look back now, you know, I you know, whilst that wasn't my decision to leave a core because of the restructure, I'm grateful for it because I wouldn't have I I might have been the person who stayed, took the other job, been terribly unhappy

or you would have worked your way up if didn't happen. You slowly work your way up the organization.

Yep. And look, there was a choice probably a year before that to do something else within the company, but I decided to stick it out with the CEO role. And I have thought in hindsight maybe that was the right decision. But actually even now I think no. I wouldn't if that hadn't have happened I wouldn't have made the choices I've made since then. And there's been too many good things that have happened in the last two and a half years.

Yeah. Fair enough. And how did you how did you not get damaged by being made redundant? Cuz perhaps it happened I mean unfortunately my bias is is guys because most CEOs are guys.

Yeah.

Um I don't know what the stat like must be about 90% I'm guessing.

Yeah. It's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but often what it happens to guys that I see, it's almost like an emasculating event.

Yeah.

And they just almost become a shadow of themselves and they lose their comfort and they don't believe in themselves. And um, in the same way, you know, imposter syndrome, like you don't attribute the good stuff to you,

all of a sudden when you start attributing the bad stuff to you, how did you not let that happen to you?

A lot of that was a lot of work if I'm honest in a way, but I think there was a few things that worked in my favor. I think because I've been on a repair, I know I', you know, I've done that before. I knew that I could start something if I had to. It wasn't like I was going to never work again. It was a choice.

A lot of people actually think that they're going to get a will never work again.

But there are people who've probably been career people their whole life, right? With their own thing.

Yeah. They've probably never done their own thing. So, I think that's the difference, right, is that I'd proven I could do it for 10 years and successfully do it in my own mind. So, I knew I had that to fall back on in my head. And I made that conscious decision to get the executive coach and actually work with someone early on and work through it. And the truth is, of course, there were days when I thought, well, I never get a job or, you know, all those sorts of things. But the reality was I was doing a lot of interviews. I mean, it's not like people were not taking my phone. But here's a lot of things that I've heard from men who were being very supportive at the time.

Treat getting a job like having a job. I mean, honestly, that would have been the worst advice for me. So, that was exactly coming from that place that you're talking about about the insecurity, like you've got to be up at, you know, you're used to getting up at 8:30, so you've got to be contacting everyone, booking in coffees, doing these sorts of things. I didn't do that. I did work hard at getting a job and working out what the opportunities were, but I also wanted to make sure I enjoyed some of this time. So that was one thing that was said to me, you know, and other things I definitely another person said to me it was another male CEO said to me who'd been in a similar situation, you know, he said, you know, he he was actually I felt in some ways depressed because the recruiters wouldn't return his call or when he wasn't the lead candidate, they suddenly never heard from them and he was sometimes sitting by the phone waiting for the phone to ring.

Whereas I don't know if I had the advantage of being in the HR space. I I get this game right with the executive recruiters. I mean, there are a couple I really love and trust and who I've known for a very long time. So, but there was a lot of others that, you know, you are a commodity. You're a number. There's nothing wrong with that. So, I wasn't waiting for the phone to ring. But I did hear comments like that a lot. And I was determined that wasn't going to be me cuz I thought if I let myself kind of get low or if I go that way, like how does that get you out of it?

Because And people often say things like it's easier to get a job when you've got a job. You know, you hear all these things all the time.

Totally. And you know, you can let that be true or not. And so it wasn't always easy. But one thing I did do, and this came from an exec recruiter who I one of the ones I I love, he said to me that he had a client who whilst they were in this time off had written a list of all the beaches in Sydney to go and visit. There was apparently hundred or something. And so every week she would tick off a few beaches and I think she got to like 83 or something by the time she got a job. So I didn't want to do that. But I did create a list. This was awesome.

And it was all the things I hadn't been able to do in the last 10 years just because I didn't have time. Things like I'd never actually been to the Archable Prize. There was some walks in Sydney I hadn't done. I wanted to go like the movies in the middle of the day. So I created this list. I still got on my phone of all these different things I wanted to do and I just started ticking off. So I still had meaning but I didn't want it to be treated like having a full-time job, looking for a job. But what was that subtle mindset difference that you had that stopped the damage? I get you intellectualized it.

I get you you got yourself very busy. I get you exerted control and did it on your terms.

Yeah.

Um the it was a mindset of it'll work out.

You chose that mindset.

I chose that mindset. It will work out. It's

Did you Did you make yourself believe that or did you just know that? I I think it's that evidence base when I look back over my life and my career, the evidence is there that it'll work out. Like I mean I should never have gone back. I mean I had my own business for 10 years. Then I went back into corporate and became the CEO of that company. Like that was not on the cards.

That wasn't expected, right?

That wasn't expected and I never planned it that way. Once I got in there, I started thinking about all those things. And I think it comes down to drive. A lot of this is about drive. Like I'm very driven. Well, what part of the drivers you? Well, I think it's that mindset piece of like I know that your your resilience is based on like you know what you tell yourself a lot of the times and I when those thoughts would creep in I'd be like you know you look just ignoring it doesn't work either right

they stay they stay

it's still there right so you have to acknowledge it and I go okay I do this thing as a coaching technique called reframing what else is possible right so you You can I can accept that or I could believe that this will work out. I'll never get a job. The perfect job is just waiting. It might come tomorrow. And this is what and this is all the I think I'm you know maybe I'm really this evidence piece is really important to me because when I think about it if I was having a down moment all of a sudden the next day you get a call out of the blue

from somebody about a job.

Yesterday you didn't know you were going to have. So the evidence was pointing along the way that it would be fine. Yeah,

you do have to make it you have to make a mental choice about how you're going to show up.

That's probably been true. It's a bit like when I was made redundant, I went straight back into the conference with a couple hundred people and I sat there and I listened. I mentally that was a that took a bit of stealiness to go in there and do that. So, could I play that back to you? Perhaps what it was kind of summarizing your words were the drive in you was so deep that you were going to get through this.

Yeah.

And that drive in you was not beaten out of you through this experience.

No.

Which maybe that's what a lot of other people that I've met, CEOs, actual drive gets beaten, the drive and self-confidence gets beaten out together cuz they're tied together in their mind.

Totally. So the title is who they are and therefore when you don't have that and then the confidence and it's like this downward spiral because the title was all who I was the loss of it was sad but I had enough self-belief to kind of you know just pull myself out when I would have those moments.

And how did how do you teach that skill to your daughters?

Oh

cuz they're going to have this experience.

I really hope that I have. Um

how did you do that?

I think I have. They will have to tell you though. Well, my my eldest daughter is actually a musician. Uh, and I'm, you know, she's when I say musician, you know, she writes music, sing, produces, etc. When she was in high school, she went to, she started high school, and it was a school where they did have music. But for some reason, she wasn't doing the music subjects and those sort of things. And there was one day, I think at the end of year 8 or something like that, where she was really upset. She called me from school and I turned up at the school and I had this meeting and I said, "What's going on?" or whatever.

and she was really angry with me, but she was just unhappy at this school, right? And in that moment, I decided she has to go to a performing arts school. And this was like in November. And again, my drive kicked in. So I rang every performing arts school, begged, could we send an audition tape in, etc. She did. She she the next year went to a performing arts high school in year 9, I think it was, and she just flourished. And that was because, again, it was this idea of strengths and what you're good at. And I knew if she could do the music, it would flow onto everything else in her. And you know what?

She's at the best university in Sydney. She's at Sydney University. She's at the Conservatorium of Music and she just did a 6 month stint in Berkeley on an exchange.

Those come together quite well.

Yeah. But and that's not because I did it. It's because she had it and I've also said to her like a lot of parents would say, "Don't do music. There's no career in that." Whereas I'm like follow your dream to the fullest. Never. This is my conversation with the gener. and they're like they roll their eyes at me and that but I believe if I say it enough I'm just saying to them just pursue this to the nth degree people are going to tell you no like she missed out so many times on performing my youngest daughter very different she's at a completely different school and more academic very driven she's so I don't even have to she's so self-driven but I just keep saying to her I actually have to say to her don't be so hard on yourself you know she got a driving license yesterday first time out very scary but it's great and I just say to them, you know, you are I say to her all the time, you're going to be a CEO.

You are going to run companies. If you want to be head of the United Nations, you will be. I've been saying this since they were little. Because Eva, who's my youngest, she was like a such a master negotiator and still is like she can convince us to do anything. She gets everything, but she does it in this way like well, you know, it's so logical. It's almost hard to defy. So we called her Banky Moon when she was a kid cuz we thought, you know, she was going to run the United Nations negotiating team. Um, and yeah, so I really have tried to have them focus on what they're good at. And I think the fact that they went to different schools was good.

They didn't follow each, you know, Eva didn't have to follow Angelina. They make their own path. And I just tell them that I think you tell people enough. It's expectancy theory, right? If you expect people to be great and you tell them they're going to be great, they will outperform. And I believe that in workplaces and I believe it with with children too.

Yeah. Probably the last part of that which you kind of implicitly spoke about is when they experience selfmastery is to personalize that experience.

Yeah.

It was actually because it was actually because of them that they did well.

Yeah.

And then that just flourishes to other parts.

Yeah. It's really interesting because just speaking about the driving, they're both totally different drivers, right? And my husband taught my oldest daughter to drive and she drives very differently to me and much faster. And my youngest daughter, I mainly taught her to drive. And they're both great drivers, but they're very different, you know, and it's interesting when you have those experiences. And so the day before I took her out for the driving, you know, she had a driving test yesterday and I was like, you know, you are a great driver and the only reason you're not going to get it is if something happens on the day, but I don't see any reason why you're not going to get your license because she genuinely is a great driver.

Now, that's not to say like all the parents, if you're listening to this, of course, we had many arguments in the car.

Yep.

Slow down. Slow down. Stay in your way.

I'm not perfect at all. But I do know, and I didn't say that because it wasn't true. I think there's also got to be an people. You got to be trusted and you got to be authentic because actually I did drive with her and she did drive incredibly well the day before. And I thought to myself, I actually can't see any reason why she's not going to get it.

Yeah, that makes sense. So, if we go back to original question, personal transitions, how do I figure out my next role? Perhaps if I can summarize your advice that you've said, it's to

it's not to repair the damage, but to actually choose not to get damaged.

Yeah.

And it's that self mastery that you experience actually completely personalized. I was actually great at this role and to deeply believe that. And then what you've done is you've taken the time. You've not rushed into the next spot. You've not made a job made seeking a job a job. You've actually given yourself, you know, one, two, three, four, five, however long it will be, right? for you to actually figure that out.

Yeah, you said that much better than I the time is really important and I think trying to work out what is important, you know, spend time on that when you're going through a transition, I think is really important because and I believe in the rule of three on a lot of things. and I'm able to go this this and this, you know, is what's important to me in the transition. So, and I think when people when you have clarity in how you communicate something, it's much more believable. And also the other thing is it goes back to the mindset piece. I think a lot of I talk about this a lot with clients is that people I think use language against themselves a lot.

They'll go, "Yeah, I could have done that better." versus, "You know what? I did really well. Next time I'll do this." And I think that's where we have to, you know, we are talking to ourselves all the time.

So that's I think the mindset piece and getting clarity and then be able to communicate that over and over and over again. You know it people believe it and guess what you will after 100%.

The other thing I'll touch on that is um the time didn't happen by accident, right? Like if you didn't go back and negotiate, if you hadn't sort out yourself financially, if you were living like paycheck to paycheck, you would not have had that time.

Yeah. And that wasn't an accident that you had that time.

No.

So to actually go and negotiate for yourself, to choose in that moment to be extremely selfish and do what's best for you and your kids

over what's best for the organization.

Most people don't do that in the moment.

Yeah. And it's really interesting. I think the decisions I made around that by like not telling my husband. So there wasn't panic when I got home. I was in a

cuz your husband would have said just take any deal just get some money. It would have been a bad counsel.

It would have been a bad counsel. But also I was in the moment when at the time, you know, it could have easily been the worst thing that happened to me and and so on. I chose to focus on how do I communicate this to my husband with care. And you're exactly right. It was selfish, but the selfishness came for I need to care for my family. I want to take care of my kids. And that's where the privilege piece comes into. I know that I am privileged. And there are a lot of people out there who don't have the opportunities I've had and you know don't get these you know chances in life. So I don't I don't but I often think that success is not by accident

is that you probably created this privilege.

Yeah. But once you got privilege you have to respect that you have privilege and other people don't. And I think that because and I also think that just you know other people could it's not that they can't create that success for themselves but the reality is not everyone's life's circumstances get them there.

But then conversely I would be like you're a female there's not many female CEOs you single mom harder upbringing. Well I actually think you didn't have a lot of privilege and I think a lot of the privilege you created was through your own hard work through your ambition through your drive.

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. I think now that I know I've got privilege, I'm not going to take it for granted.

Now you do. Yeah.

And hang on to it. Hang on to it.

It's so much more privilege.

I'm definitely hanging on to it.

Yeah. Perfect. Anything else you wanted to add on to onto that?

Well, I'd like to just ask you, do you have any advice around transition for for people? Like I mean, you've been, you know, a great resource for me and

um over the last, you know, 12 18 months or so to connect with. If I was to summarize it in a sentence, when you get made redundant, actually I'll say three or four. When you get made redundant, most people it damages them. And then when they go for the next role, they go for the next role through a place of um weakness and you're not negotiating it as a peer anymore. The other I always love is like Gandhi, right? So he had to negotiate with the British for a free India and he had absolutely no control in that situation, right?

Like he was literally a slave. There was probably not even a crime for him to be be murdered, right? It was probably totally okay

and if it wasn't, no one would have prosecuted anyway.

But he had to negotiate that cuz he was like, "No, I'm actually your peer in this negotiation."

And most people lose that. And that's why a lot of CEOs, they'll finish one role, they get damaged, be a shell of their prior self, and they'll find it very hard to get to the next role. So that that's probably the first thing So that's what a lot of people do is they take this damaged shell of a person of themselves onto the next company and they go straight into panic mode like I've got to go find another job and they'll do whatever process they have, coffees, networking, recruiters, whatever it is, just to try to land that next job.

Yeah.

But they just do that from a place of weakness and then they're not successful. Um because often often you want a strong C.

You want someone who's coming from a place of strength. Hey, I'm amazing. I did this amazing job. I might be right for you. I might not be you're selling to me as much as I'm selling to you.

Yeah.

And that's just a completely different mindset than most people lose. That'd be one is just kind of don't get damaged. Remember you're someone's equal as you go through this process. The other part, look, time's fantastic. I mean, I've worked full-time for about four years. Um, originally I was going to take a couple of months off, but then it's just dragged into four years. And I'll never go back to full-time work. But I would not have had that insight that I asked you to have that insight.

I was a CEO of a tech company, hundred million dollar business. The plan was go to a bigger company, bigger company, big company.

Yeah.

And I would not have had the insight. So sometimes we accept that you don't have the insight to figure out what's best for you.

Um cuz sometimes you can't see things in a longer arc time. You just can't.

Yeah. you can kind of roughly guess in a couple years that's what that's where you'll be.

The last thing I might add to that is um I wouldn't have advised for you to take that not for profofit CEO role.

Yeah.

And that's just me with an external view and I know nothing about it. On that day when you if you had a coffee and you like I'm thinking about this role. I'll be like I think you should hold out. I think you should hold out. I reckon you should um I know get onto more boards, you more consulting work and just wait a couple of more months just to wait it out.

Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah. There was one of the other things I'm curious your thoughts about is one thing that people said was it'll all work out. But even though what we've talked a lot about today is confidence and I thought it would all work out, there's still moments of doubt. I think my moments of doubt were just shorter. So I do have a lot of understanding for why people, you know, kind of lose that confidence because they do think it's just not going to work out.

Sometimes it doesn't like it's all going to work out is only people say that to make you feel better and in a lock arc time it probably does, but I've seen lots of CEOs have their career derail.

They get fired and they will never quite get up to that level. Often I've seen CFOs happen that as well.

Yeah. um where they'll get have an amazing job, get made redundant, get stuck in a global restructure, and they just never quite get back to that level.

Yeah.

So, working out is not actually guaranteed.

It's different if you leave voluntarily cuz often then you've got the next role, you left on your turn.

Yeah.

None of that damage has come with you and that next role is is even better. But when you get stuck in a global restructure, which happens to everybody at some point in their career and you grab that damage, it just sometimes it doesn't work out and sometimes it's just a horrible experience and I've seen people's careers just spiral out of control.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think so the key takeaway from that probably just goes back to that, you know, giving yourself time, working on, you know, the clarity of what you're actually looking for next and then mindset.

I think so. And in my experience through my meditation that I do is that what actually happens is there the stuff that gets stuck in your mind that you can't intellectual intellectualize your way out of cuz it's stuck in a very deep part of the mind that's connected to the body but doesn't understand language. And the psychological damage that happens gets stuck there

and no matter how much you talk to somebody about how great they are, how how well they've done, they'll never understand it on the deepest part of their mind. They'll intellectualize it but they'll never understand it very deeply. M

um so unless you go off and you do your 10,000 hours meditation like me, which not many people do,

the great thing to do is to not get damaged in the first place.

Yeah.

And that's what you did super effectively.

Like when you had that phone call that said you're going to be made redundant, you would have felt something in your body.

Yeah.

Everybody would have totally felt something in your body.

And when you feel that in your body, that's the chance that that emotion which manifests as a physical sensation in the body has its opportunity to get buried deep in your mind. M

um and you through your intellect or through your great experience, you chose not to let that happen.

Yeah.

And that was totally a choice.

Um cuz often what people do is they know don't know they feel it. They feel a lot of aversion to that very unpleasant sensation and then that gets locked in their mind and it will stay within their entire life as I've experienced it.

Yeah. Wow.

I really should get back into meditation. Last question on my side. Ask all my guests. What is something that you've always known to be true that later on you actually found out wasn't?

Oh, It's it's a tough one, but I think that I've always believed in the idea of equality.

Explain that more. Well, I've just I believe in sort of fairness and equality and that everyone has the should have the same rights as everybody else and the same opportunities. And I believe that I still I still believe it, but I'm less inclined to believe it now because I've seen inequality in throughout my career in society and things like that. And so I've always had this hope that we would get there. and I'm not as sure anymore. And that's that's actually quite hard cuz it's a really fundamental part of who I am. Um because it's it's a deeply human thing to not have equality.

Yeah.

Like you got your platinum quantis flyers, you got your gold, you got

Yeah.

I'm Indian. We created a cast system.

Yeah.

So we love not having inequality. So we love not having equality.

Yeah.

It's a very deep human thing. It's it's a horrible thing, but it's deeply human thing that manifests in every society.

Yeah. And I think what I just hoped and maybe it's not that we would have absolute equality but I just hoped that you know if I if I go back 30 40 years that we'd be further advanced and I think we're not and you're probably right it's a deeply human thing. So yeah maybe I hoped that things could be fair for everybody but what I've learned and maybe the last two and a half years has confirmed as well is that it's not and maybe that is okay. And the truth is that inequality has benefited me as well. Like as you just said, you know, if you're a platinum flyer, then you know, I'm always the first one.

I want to get on the plane first, get my bag up. I take advantage of that, too. So that's probably maybe it's just a reality check. Maybe the the hopefulness of it um has become more realistic.

It's a lovely romantic notion.

But I'm not going to totally give up on it. I just think that we can get I think we can be better as humans.

Okay. Awesome. Great. Thank you very much for your time. Thanks Sarah.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Thanks S.

Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you do want to be a guest, make sure you hit me up and do follow me on socials and make sure you check out