Leadership, Tech & Strategy in the Parking Industry

Running a business can feel lonely, especially when the decisions get heavy. Welcome to CEO Rispro by Sora Jane. Practical insights from the boardroom and the meditation cushion. I'm sorry. I've done 10,000 hours in three major parts of my life. I spent 10,000 hours being a CEO, 10,000 hours being a board member, and 10,000 hours meditating. What we're going to do in each episode is really unpack a real business challenge that a CEO is facing and see if we can work through it together. Enjoy.

Thank you for joining us at CEO Whisperer. I'm sorry, but I've got Japan Meta with me today as well from my ticketless parking. Jan, do you want to tell us a bit about yourself?

Sure. Thank you very much for the uh for the invite. It's it's a pleasure. Um so I run um a tech company which I call it a day job uh where I I'm a CEO an MD um at ticketless parking which is more about uh making the parking experience for the motorist as well as the management um super simple

uh without compromising the yield. And then I also um support a couple of startups uh to help them with uh growth. Um

I just noticed our local Lanc Cove parking is actually tickless parking as well.

That is correct. That is correct. It's one of our oldest um operating customer and it's uh no gates and we are now on four different car parks with that.

Y

so that and then other other board uh sit on the board of edtech called Jedel.

Yep. um and uh which has recently developed an AI uh plugin that helps teachers and students with the work and also

uh advisor on a beauty tech uh which is like

it's called Bella Bella app which is more of um

call it an Uber app uh Uber Eats for for salons and um

mentor a few very early based startups uh because nowaday I think having lived in US where the startups and entrepreneurship is a big deal.

Yep.

Which slowly is creeping into Australia very um good thing but a lot of people wants to do it just don't know how to you know experience that.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the lens of today is probably to try to talk through a business problem that you're having today. Um do you want to just frame that up for us to get us started? Um, in terms of the business problem, look, I I I think nowadays, as I said, that um, Australia is a hidden gem. It's an island that a lot of people don't know how amazing it is. But then in terms of the tech world,

y

uh, if you're we're always on the not a front end of the innovation. So whenever there is a new tech

that is introduced to us,

Yeah. The biggest challenge that I feel being an engineer and a tech is

I'm one of those early adopters.

Y

but then in order to um have people's buy in

and blessing is probably the biggest uh challenge in any of the tech firm

unless it is spreading like AI. I think there's still resistance not little bit but a lot.

Uh but that's the thing like the adoptation of the new tech is always a challenge. So

is that you selling tech to your clients or you getting tech used by your internal staff?

I think both. Um some people um use it, some people abuse it. But then how to utilize to improve the yield is the challenge.

Yeah. Now everything nowadays for example is coming with a rep in an AI rapper.

Mhm.

But then when you start digging more into it you don't really get any benefit like uh we use CRM.

Yeah.

And then it's like oh I have this AI well is AI really giving me any help to generate more leads or even if I have a lead is that AI helping me to convince the customer. So, and that's that's the challenge and a little bit of foundation on that.

Actually, could be a bit more narrow like is there a specific uh tech you're trying to introduce that you're not having success with, not having traction with?

Um, yeah, we can. So, payments is now gone digital, right? It's all mobile phone. And um I have been in the parking industry uh for almost a decade now. And back in the day used to be the on street lollipop parking meters that you put in the coins and then they the

the credit card tabs and then nowadays um including lane co and north Sydney many councils across Australia and globally

they want to reduce the they call it the furniture on the side of the street like parking meters and and also they want

to remove the gates and stuff like that. So they want to introduce the digital payment and the permits and registration methods for on street, off streetet and and and all. So

if you had registered your cars, you can park anywhere if you go. You don't have to look for a parking meter or you just pay on your phone. Yep.

Or you drive in and out of a car park uh and know that you will get a push notification that you drove in and just like tools. Mhm.

Um that I even now is a struggle.

Yeah. And is that struggling with your clients or struggling getting your internal people to implement that tech so you can sell it to your clients?

Clients.

Yeah. And and why is it a struggle?

Um my 77 year old mom says I would never have a credit card.

Right. So

uh she doesn't drive but at the same time

uh there is um let's say Jen of our age

their mindset is I stop and I pull a ticket and I pay before I leave and if you tell them that there is no ticket to pull

there is no machine to pay

it's all on your phone. Yeah.

And they're like you're you're you're going to take some away from me. Then there are some um data awareness and and issues as well comes to play like okay so if I have to register where is my data and then who has my credit card details and things like that and the

theft that goes around I don't blame them completely

there are better measures for the risk control uh as well as the data management and we have also introduced

a nonapp based payments and stuff, but it's uh it's still an uphill battle to convince

uh a motorist

Yeah.

to pay using your smartphone.

Okay. So, so is the challenge that one maybe want to talk about is like how do I get new payments tech into my clients? Is is that what you're trying to solve for?

Correct.

Yeah.

And um who who who are your general clients? Are they councils, parking lots, loun mixed use development, shopping centers, councils, uh a lot of um lots and lots of uh hospitality venues like hotels, RSLs.

Yeah.

Um and uh some hospitals as well.

Yeah. And and why is this a good problem to solve?

Um any any car park or on street council um does not want to lose revenue.

Mhm.

They want to make it uh work for everyone.

Yeah.

If you look at the demographic between um drivers of my daughter's age who got are on their peas.

Yep. Terrified.

Those like my mom who shouldn't be driving.

Yeah. They all use those car parks and they're all willing to pay.

Yeah.

So then the question then becomes is what's the way the tech is moving is so fast.

Mhm.

It amazes me but not others, not everyone.

So there is no uh cookie cutter solution

for a customer. I mean, if you own a car park and if you say, "Well, like I have a driver's range from uh 19 to 69."

Yeah.

Tell me one thing that works for everyone.

Mhm.

And I don't think my daughter has any plastic credit card. She's like, "Why? Why would I need it?"

Uh why do I go along the window and do anything? You know, so

but then the other elderly gentleman's like, "I don't have a credit card."

Yeah. What? What do you mean you don't you can't take my cash?

So, how do you simplify parking? That's what that's what it is. And it's it's a similar thing like um even if I look talk about the other tech business that I'm involved in.

It it may not be the the specific payment, but there's a lot that is happening on handheld.

People are still when they think of education, they think of pen and paper.

Mhm. Nobody's thinking of AIS and typing and things like that. Um,

so, so it it's

but I just want to understand like like why is that a problem to solve? Like why do you want to try to get some of this new payment tech into your clients? I mean, if they're happy as is, why why try to change that?

As I say that, you know, if you if the tech is evolving very fast, the the cash is going to be history probably I would say in next 10 years.

Nobody's going to, you know, it will be framed.

Mhm. Um I think my grandkids would just say what is this? Uh so it is it is a problem and whomever solves it

it's a problem that you see as a problem your clients see as well.

I see it as a problem as well and then sometimes the clients do see it but they're like okay you know I mean it's not my today's problem

so I'll just get on with it and by the time it becomes my problem

somebody will have a solution. So it first comes with

um CEOs and techies like me or you who just say okay if I have a solution that is going to be problem in four to five years

and if I get a head started today

I have a two uh ways to go about one is not only I have to come up with a very robust solution

but two I have to start warming up the customer that's like this is coming

very soon the cash is going to be obsolete and nobody's going to have a physical car.

Devil's advocate like I just don't get why why solve that? I mean in five years your clients will be ready. You you can meet them there. Why try to drag them forward?

Um a couple of things. One obviously uh if you don't do it somebody else would and then they would be front of the line and and uh

and this is you selling to your existing clients or to new or a bit of both?

Both. Both. Okay.

A bit of both. And then and I think to be honest with you it's a lot easier to sell to the existing ones.

Um so tickets for example um is an old school even five years ago if I used to be in a meetings where

the conversation was more about

what's wrong with tickets why do I need to go ticketless how how efficient is your your um

uh your system and what's the accuracy to read the license plate and things like that. So the conversation was never about

why is your system better than the other. It was more digress about convince me about this tech.

Y

sometime I mean those conversations does not have a win or loss.

Mhm.

You leave them in in confusion. It's like

well if I believe only this person it does otherwise it I don't know type of thing. Mhm.

Um those who we convince and we continue to develop today. They're all knocking on our doors, we are converting that into business. We are making money.

Uh we are getting a lots of clients who are now saying like this is the future.

Yeah.

Uh and these guys been at it for a long time. So it's I want to be the voice today.

Yep.

Who talks about it. So when you hear too much about it, you're like, "Oh, I know this person been talking about it for 5 years."

Y

probably he knows or this business knows.

So is it is it to be cuz if you talk about this a lot, you'll be like, you know, the thought leader, the brand leader in this area.

People may not use that tech where you might have a halo effect,

but they're like these this is the forward thinking company. Let me sign them up. I'm not ready for this new payment system yet, but I know at some point I'll use that and then the ready for you'll win more work that way. Is that what you're thinking? like it will be like a sales and marketing tool for you as well or

it's it's a bit of both right so a branding matters uh if you talk about it now it may

I'll give you an example um since the last couple of days just for kicks I've been trying the full self driving

oh yeah amazing

supervised

uh when I put um when I told my wife she said oh maybe in in the night then there is no traffic. I mean, it's supposed to work regardless.

My daughter um who initially said not when I'm in the car.

Mhm.

So, you can sense that, you know, Elon's thinking about it. It's like this is the future.

Yeah.

We are probably from from my experience, I think we are few years away from from literally sitting in the back seat and and building

not there today. But when that's going to be the the pioneer of the mindset.

Yeah.

A lot of other cars are going to come up with this just like you know he commercialized the EV.

If he hadn't done it the Tesla wouldn't be a one point one more than a trillion dollar business. Yeah.

Yeah.

We did the same thing three years ago. If you look at you know we started branding and of the concept

not a business the concept. Uh we got lucky that you know we we IP the ticketless parking and then that's that's us.

Y

um so the concept today

is our business name.

Y

so we must have done it long long time ago when people didn't even think of a concept.

Yeah.

We didn't just sit there um for all these years just doing that. So what we did is like if we had this tickets a paper tickets not only you're helping people save money

uh you're digitizing the identification of a vehicle at an entry and exit y

for a start and end

and then with that digitization there's so much you can do payments permits

um validations discounts and you know it just opens another world when those who are actually now saying that like darn it um we missed the boat 5 years ago but we can catch up we just need to understand where to get these cameras and software and blah blah blah

but by then you're already three steps ahead

right so

uh it's always like that you you find a problem and then you think of the potential that it can branch job.

Mhm.

And then when you solve that fundamental issue, then there is so much uh growth that you can do.

Well, I think I think an analogy holds well for Tesla. Like I bought my first Tesla probably 8 years ago now. Um paid for the full self-driving back in 2018, whatever it was. Um thinking that's it's a year away. But I bought into Tesla's vision.

Yes.

And what resonated with me back even 8 years ago, Elon Musk was saying like, why would you buy a car that can't drive itself?

Mhm. can't do it today, but I'm only a year away. He's been a year away for a while and I think now he's probably only year a year away. Um, so I totally get that. So I guess in your context, you've solved the tickless parking parking problem.

Yes.

Um, you've solved it and probably everyone else has somewhat solved it to some degree like people have copied it. They've done different tech. Um, so it kind of makes sense. You've got to figure out what's that next vision thing.

Um, short of changing the name to paymentless tickets payment less parking. I don't know. Um, so that totally makes sense, right? You got to figure out like what's this new innovative thing that you actually want to brand yourself as.

Yeah, I think

is that it?

Uh something like that. This this mobility now go beyond

once you solve this vehicle identification

issue

or a challenge.

Yeah. Then suddenly you're into mobility business because data and tracking in a safe way in safe environments and in right hands

there is so much um that is happening from the digital wallet perspective. Right? So end of the day uh what's going to happen is continuation into the full self-driving. the the claim whenever that happens is that um owners like us would have uh a vehicle. We wake up.

Yep.

We want to go to work.

We call our car which has been making money.

Yep. Totally.

Being a being a cyber not cyber truck. Um

robo taxi.

The robo taxi. Thank you.

And then once it drops it off then it goes around makes more money. Right. It would have an identification license plate, right? The license plate would go into the car park.

It would stay in a car park in a charging bay by identified by your license plate and charge

and then drive out. There is nobody there.

Yeah.

That identifier

linked with the payment processing for the services you take from on road or off off road

uh go through tolls.

Yeah. Um people will know there's like oh which one is my robo taxi? Oh yeah it's ABC123 license plane.

Um so that fundamental problem or challenge of identifier needed to be solved

which is now done. So now suddenly you can embark upon all this mobility journey.

It's like how do I

how do I bank and cash on that?

Yeah. and offered paid services.

So the problem perhaps you're already finding this um actually I must just ask how long have you been talking about this kind of the new payment framework for? How long have you been thinking about talking about telling your team telling your clients for?

Uh just a couple of years not too long.

Yeah.

So it's going to be and tell me if you're finding this but it's going to be really hard to solve. I'll I'll tell you why. Because you probably got a team of mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, software engineers, people that understand software for, you know, image processing.

Mhm.

You probably don't have a great payments team, right? You probably not like set up like a fintech.

How have you gone about convincing your internal guys that the next pivot is to almost become this payments fintech style organization? So what we have done is um you know when you listen to the customers and their dreams and kind of align and assess your own

it comes the vision comes and this is the the thing of

so it's not so much about the vision the vision makes sense but how do you convince your internal guys cuz internal guys have this legacy of being successful in ticketless parking and now you want to be successful in this payments game

which is completely different different mindset different risk profile different compl clients and if I'm an engineer, you know, doing whatever the physical stuff I got to do around parking.

Yeah. I

How do I get the CEO to take me from here to here?

Yeah. So, I

And your grin says it all, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I you're you're absolutely right. I mean,

quite a few many years ago, I was introduced to a book which put things into words of of what which is good to great. Right. M

if you have a right people in the right chair on the bus

then they would be willing to agree and embark on their

journey

the way when the winds of change comes

there will be always people who would just say no we can't steer this is it and I still have them

um but that doesn't mean that you um there are some anchors and there are some propellers and there are some you know who are just passengers.

Y

as long as those individuals in the team are not being anchors to stop

Yeah.

the the the progress then that's fine. You can always find propellers.

But is is that solved within your organization or is that the problem to solve? It's it's solved. Um so everybody has a has a role to play right we have a a legacy system like lane co it's been operating for 10 years

there are legacy systems and we have engineers who are still there to solve and service and maintain and do this. Yeah,

there are customers who would just say we're very very happy with what we have. We won't change nothing and and even if you go and tell them it's like oh but you can double your income. It's like no very happy very

but then majority of them the moment you talk about yield and stuff this is the role of a leader of the business the CEO or a non-CEO. Um my past life when uh I was giving my ideas and vision

there were some other leaders who were laughing at it.

Yeah. As in like people within within within the team.

Yeah. The peers or the peers or the you know cross other sea level executives or the people you know like the board or and stuff like that.

They're like this is crazy you know what is this guy thinking? How did you make sure you didn't get fired during that process?

Uh, I didn't. So,

yeah. Well, I didn't get fired. It's just great. But, but how did you make sure you weren't fired during that process? Cuz often that's what happens, right? A CEO will actually see the future. They'll see it correctly,

but in the initial phases, they fail to either convince the board or convince their management team that this is the way to go to

and they get turfed out.

So, the I was not I was a sea level executive but not a CEO.

Oh, you CEO at the time. Okay.

Yeah. So, what happened? What what level were you at the time?

COO.

Okay.

I think what it is is that it's bit of both ways, right? And exactly I said that if the the leader of the business says like this is this is what we do, you know, we we we don't need to digress. We have a customer who's willing to pay for it.

Yeah.

And then somebody comes along. Even today when I am CEO

Mhm. because that happened to me. I don't turn a blind eye on any any idea or a concept, right? It could be as crazy as as it could be. But

um I always take it with a grain of salt and it's like okay you know let's unfold this or

but when when somebody comes to you and says look the world is going this way

and we are putting time and resource on other way direction why don't we focus and allocate something here if survival is not an issue let's talk about growth

about the timing so so you had this idea what how many years ago would it would it have been when you first started So four four years ago. How long have you been at Tickless Parking Parking for now?

Uh four years. Nice. Um

so kind of as soon as you joined you as soon as you joined you saw this like a year later.

How long before you became the CEO?

So I um I saw the digital payments

for mobility

almost six, seven years ago. This is where the world was going.

Yeah. Um I took my vision

to execute somewhere else.

Uh at that time um ticketless parking was a struggling business.

Uh

why was it struggling or what wasn't working?

Uh variety of things. It was a family familyowned. They had a very good run.

Still family owned is it?

No, not anymore. Y

they had a good run and um you know it gets to a point where like okay now you know we need someone to take it to the next

and the CEO at the time was family was they or they got so we did the buyout and um

so you did a management buy out

yeah pretty much and and now um

one of the um non-executive director from the previous work

uh who's he's also N uh because we both share a vision and uh Pete Seligman

and uh he's now also you know came joined us in 21 July something like that. So

first things first what we need to do is steer the ship in the right direction. It's like okay you know this is where we're going analog and supporting analog.

We need to slowly start she steering the ship towards digital.

Mhm.

Let's fix this text stack.

Yeah. Let's come up with this story because if you are telling a story to a customer and if you

believe in that story the customer would believe in it

and this is what is happening now three four five years later that when our team not just me now

um tells that story and the vision then the customer was like okay I believe it and this is exactly

what happened to the team as well there were people who did not believe

yeah uh and there were people who were very excited or there were other clam to say look I'm neither

what did the CEO said at the time was a CEO a believer or or not a believer

uh cuz it's always very hard being a CO trying to convince the CEO of a new strategy especially the old one was at least moderately successful.

Yeah. So I I ended the board appointed me as the CEO and then and the

prior CEO left the business.

Yeah. Okay. Well, he was transitioning out.

Transitioning. Okay.

The idea at that time is that if we were to find ourselves to go diesel way here, what are the changes required today without

without losing the oxygen

to feed the family, right?

Yeah.

Families in a work family. So the whole idea is that there is a speed and a direction of matters and um without compromising the existing customers vision things like that. So

the whole um it's it wasn't an easy uh uh battle but

I mean explain to me like how did you get the board on your side for this? Was it was it was it obvious easy or was it was it complex and nuanced? The board needs to be to an extent supportive that look currently.

How did you get the board to be supportive? That that's

Yeah. So even even today or as simple as oh we we grow out of this office space we need to go to a bigger office space.

Y

the board now has an expectation from me

and they know that this is how he Japan does the homework and this is how he represents the logic and the data. Yep.

And Japan is also open for a count of questions and things like that and and he's also okay

for us to give him logic to say okay I don't think this is a good idea and here's the logic

but majority of the time that I then I evolve and then go back so that they don't have to go through this.

Yeah.

So it's it's the relationship that needs to mature and develop. Right. Day one, a newly appointed CEO and a board of directors isn't always aligned.

Mhm.

This is something that we have.

But how did you how did you get them aligned to go down this payments path? Right. Well, we've got an existing CEO business is surviving. He's doing okay. Got this new CEO that joined a year ago. He's saying we should go in this direction. This guy perhaps in this scenario saying we're not we shouldn't go in that direction. How do you convince a board of that change? So the first things first is that whatever uh you know when when somebody says that when they people hire a sea level executive they don't hire

to change nothing they hire to bring in the change.

Yep.

So first things as far as the board does expect you to go and suggest to change number one thing

they don't like anybody to come on a whim

that let's try this.

Yeah. So the first you have to um what I what I showed is lay the foundations like okay in your perception in my perception in the team's perception and the customer perception this is not working.

Mhm.

What's the problem we solving? Are we solving a a problem that we will help us get by?

Yeah.

Or growth. Oh growth. Well, the growth what is it that we do in parking? Oh, we do image processing, identify vehicle. So,

so it can we can collect the money.

So, this whole game of parking is about money.

Yeah.

Because people want

money from uh renting the real estate that they own.

Yep.

So, end of the day, this is whole game is is all about money. M

so how do we make it so simple that people never when was you have Netflix subscription I hope I don't remember the last time you even saw how much they charge and exactly

don't even notice anymore exactly the point so if you make it so seamless

um that nobody needs to they're like okay they must be doing the right thing and it's it's in subscription it's in good hands and my they have my card details I

I enjoy what I do so I'm not going to complain that it was $9 and now it's 29.

Mhm.

Because it's so simple. It's so seamless. This is exactly what the direction and then my my thing was like not how we going to do it. It's first thing was why we need to do

Yeah.

And the whole idea was let's simplify the payments.

The tech to support

y

will come.

That's it. So okay. Okay. So, I get how you can take a board through that journey. Why were you not able to convince the CEO of of that change? Um, I'm just trying to find uh the words. So, because I don't want to come across as, you know, that

don't want to badmouth or throw anybody under the bus because everybody has a vision.

Yeah.

Some things work and some don't, right? I take business being, you know, from being Guju. It's it's all business mindset and it's all about about that.

Uh my family says that my EQ

is zero when it comes to which is I continue to argue say it's not. Mhm.

But the thing is that when you have uh your your wife and a son and daughter and a son-in-law and all this, you know, you know, rudely called nepotism.

There are too many

emotional authoritative voices.

Yeah.

Driving your decision rather than a vision

driving an execution.

Yeah.

Right. I mean that happens a lot that I see in like family businesses or just businesses that have exist for while people work for a long time

where your personal relationship is actually more important than doing what's what's right and you support the person not necessarily what they're saying correct and I think that's the the go golden key right my I have investment in three different other businesses as well

each time I did have a

conversation over a drink or dinner table um or a sensor study conver my my better half

say I'm

this is the concept and this is what the CEO the founder is and this is the direction

and I think I'm going to to put in some um and buy some get some equity in that

she rightfully has not always agreed

there are some like, well, I don't know. I don't really see see that vision, but um

but I'm just here to be the sanity check and tell you what I feel like.

Yeah,

she has never made my life difficult to say you invested because you I told you and blah blah blah. But what happens is when somebody is involved too deep into that and that becomes your life.

Yeah. then it's like four people trying to steer one car

to get to the destination. It's bound to to crash into something.

Mhm.

I think at some point this is where the problem is the is that when the founders and the CEO because the cash is tied in a starting business.

Oh, so that CEO was the founder as well were they? Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. and and then the cash is tied and people generally make this mistakes like oh my wife does a very good accounts of home we never you know have this that what if she does this right

there I mean there are other businesses that I know there's like oh you know um

cuz I mean just on that it's near impossible if you are a founder and you get family in the business it's near impossible to be objective

yes

uh I' I've not found someone who is

yes

especially if you your son, your wife, your cousins, your nephews, they might be very competent at their role, but if you need to fire them, that's super hard and almost never no one ever does it.

It's very very difficult. That was the one of the challenge in um in quite a few. I mean,

two best friends probably uh would work

any immediate family.

It it's very difficult.

It's tough. I mean, my advice to any founder and CEO is

even if your family wants to volunteer and help,

unless it is cooking at a barbecue bench near the Christmas and it starts has a start and a middle and an end.

Yep.

And there is no ongoing commitment, please don't.

Yeah.

Um, and so it would have been a super high risk thing, right, for you to go with this strategy. um the founder has a view, the CEO has a view. Um that would have been a horror thing to go because I imagine what would have happened. He would have had hundreds of conversations before this, right? To try to convince them, hey, here's the future. We're not in tickular sparking anymore. We're going to there's a payments game coming on in the next couple of years. We need to pivot our staff, pivot our cost space, pivot our investment. I think this is where this is where the the board I mean as a CEO what I very very strongly believe that any business that I'm involved in regardless of the CEO

position or Ned or or advisor is

is the key role is to increase the the value of the enterprise

and that is what we owe to the shareholders. Mhm.

There's nothing else. Every day you need to for most of decision big ones they need to ask like is it going to help?

Yeah.

Increase the value.

Every board member will agree with that. They just won't agree on how to do that.

Correct.

And your job is to convince them that your way on how to do that is better than plan A is actually better.

And then comes to the picture, right? So I I believe in a very simple formula that you know vision plus strategy plus execution is the growth. So, first you give them a vision, right?

People was like, "Oh, this is great. Now you've showed us this blue sky."

Yep.

Great genius. Now tell us,

yeah,

what's what who's going to do it and how is it? That's the strategy, right?

And did you have to convince that before they appointed you as CEO or could you figure that out after you're in the seat? um to an extent is always before there is always uh this um Rubik cube on the table. It's like if you solve this then we we know.

Yep. Then we believed you. Yep.

Yeah. So then we believe you. So that uh at that point in time the they were raising capital

based on an idea

and I was they were you know talk this is in a peak or trailing COVID days. And everybody was looking for a reason to get out of the house and said, "Oh, we have a meeting with a few capital." One of them with was with Raj

and um we we he they showed us the IM and they're like, "Oh, what do you think?" M

um the conversation was already in this like can we considering you to steer this business in a in a right direction or a different direction

and when I looked at uh the IM I we were about to walk into the meeting

uh with the PE firm family office

and I said this whole thing is a flawed proposition and like why and I give them

five or six

so this is tickless marketing. Yes.

Original IM based on the historical strategy.

Yes.

Okay.

And then it's like I said, this is kind of flawed. This is why.

Yeah.

We walk in and then 10 15 minutes later the the PE firm says, well, the short answer is no. We won't invest

or open to give you a feedback if you want. Yeah. Sure. Sure.

Yeah.

They pretty much said the same thing. So now

what they say what

they're pretty much saying that look this this is not how it is and if you if you really start giving out the hardware at no cost

uh there is no guarantee that you would have so many customer lined up. It's not like Apple starts to giving Apple iPhones out at no cost then that then everybody will pay for subscription you know. Sure. And then even if you if you give

so what your model was you get rid of the upfront cost you have subscription fee monthly you hold them for many years you have

yeah then they're like okay so how much is it if the if the average cost uh of leasing

you know per site for example is $100,000 you're asking for a million dollar hypothetically numbers

what are you going to do after 10 lanes or 10 sites you're going to say sorry we ran out

but stay in line when we recook the money year and a half later you'll be the that's not going to work.

You have the requirement for that business,

right? And then and then people will do it now today

because it's tried and tested and proven

not when you're like I can do this, you know, I'll give Yeah.

And what's what's your turn like? Do people ever leave you? I mean, once you're in, you're asking you're in forever, are you? No, there is there are a couple of them who actually

see there are there are a few players always it's like uh if I give you an example of a of a car

y

you have a car and it's being driven by a chauffeur and it's being serviced by somebody

um or the dealer where you bought it from. Now that chauffeur is very happy and he knows the mechanic who's servicing and life goes on.

Five years later the mechanic changes

and the chauffeur also changes or may not change

but then chauffeur will come back and says look this is a bad place to get serviced

or if the the mechanic is the same but the chauffeur changes it will come back to you and then says look I don't think this is a good car. Yeah, but isn't isn't like the cost of your hardware, your boom gates, like is isn't that quite an impediment to go put someone else's system in or is it not that great?

If people wanted to leave, could they kind of thing or

Yeah, it's always a return on investment, right? So even nowadays uh we go in with a story of return on investment like if you have an old ticketed system

or a new system

if you have this many cars leave without paying or every card pulls a 10 cent ticket

and in Len Co as you saw they get about 7,000 cards a day

and if you have to pay $700 for the paper that is of no use

for that money you can get a new system. So it's all about returning

and how long does your hardware tend to last? Like how long before they naturally

Yeah. No, so in terms of our oldest customers

like North Wley Hospitals or Lancco,

they're 10 plus years.

The only moving

So you'd be on like low single digits churn I'd imagine. Like when someone gets you, they probably stay with you for a long time unless they need to actually change their hardware market again. So all most of our customers are under we call it a care package tickless care which is like an extended warranty.

If it naturally breaks if the computer dies or the moving arm uh falls off or something like that

uh it's on us

we'll change it. There's a fixed fee for um parts labor and software you never have to worry about

unless it is vandalism.

If it is vandalism capture on camera somebody's gonna some insurance going to pay for it. They don't really care. Yeah. So end of the day, if I can give you a piece of mind to say anything happens to your car, you never have to pay a penny unless you ram into a wall.

Then it's on you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um and that seemed to be working very very well.

Okay. So the private equity story makes sense. You went, you pitched, they weren't going to buy the old ticketless parking system. You had to pivot your story if you wanted to raise capital.

Mhm. Um so then that makes a lot of a lot of sense and why the board would support the new story because if you couldn't raise capital there'd be other challenges I'm sure in the organization. Um so is that when the board decided let's go down this payment strategy. So the board decided firstly is that if this is this is not um so what was the fundamental problem? The fundamental problem were twofold. One was the solution itself was new like full self-driving right

FSD a lot of people are trying right now because it's like what $150 a month

not bad I'll try it for a month if it works for me if I can good if I can milk it then why not and if I can't I'll just stop right because it's affordable

if it was $10,000 nobody's buying it

so the whole idea was that okay how do Why I make it so that people are don't feel that I'm making taking a massive risk by by doing this new tech.

So I had to first fix the tax stack.

Yeah.

And we had a great team. They are still on board. Uh and our head of tech has been with the business for almost 12 years now. So, and then we got new team members as well. So, first things first was let's fix the stack.

Yeah.

Right.

At the same time, let's go out, let's go to shoot.

And this was once you were CEO, was it?

Yes.

Though, as that transition happened, right, as you either stab the old guy in the back, slit his throat, front stab, how however it happens, right? It's always messy when it ends. I've been there.

Um, it's always a hunger games towards the end. It totally is.

I 100% agree with you. It It's a matter of perception, right? M I mean I wasn't there with an intention that this is it, you know, I'm here evolves, right? Because I'm number seven.

Yeah.

And I have to be the last one standing

because that's the job. That's the nature of the game.

So then you step in as the CEO. What does your exec team look like? Because these are still people that have had the old vision. Some are born in, some are not. Some might be family, some might be very loyal to the private person. How how does how does that change happen?

Um it's funny that there were some individuals in the team they were um they had given a creative self deadline like nothing happens by Christmas.

Yeah.

I'm going to leave

as nothing happens for the payment system by Christmas.

Nothing happens to the business and the leadership thing. And

this is once you're a CEO was it?

No. No. This there I mean I found out later on like head of operations

Yeah. was almost out of the door to say if this is what it is. I'm I'm gone unless the board changes something.

Oh, okay. So, if we don't pivot our ticket strategy, then I'm leaving. Okay, got it.

So, then when I was um um put on a CEO's chair, they extended that like, okay, I'll give another 6 months to see what this guy does.

Yeah. Let's see if this guy's any good

because I have I have

How long have you been there for now? At this stage,

uh January is going to be five years.

How long have you been there before you stepped in as CEO? uh couple of months.

Oh wow. So still very new. Who's this guy straight like okay so you know and what is he going to do? You know

that's a that's a very quick coup a couple of months

as in the change over the change.

The change over happened no I was appointed but the change over happened over or one and a half to two years.

Oh painful

but it's it's I mean I Like I like I said, I don't

I wasn't there to to do it. It just

this is the pathway.

It evolves. Yeah, totally.

Everybody's agreeing.

If you're not, it doesn't matter who you are.

This is it.

You know, take it or leave it type of thing.

So they the the head of like for head of operations had ideas and plans and thoughts and

it's like, okay, you know, I this is everything on the table. Full disclosure. What do you think? And I was like, okay, I like the six cards and the other four can y be parked.

I like okay at least something is happening now. Let's let's see if is a man of

the true words.

What percentage of your exec team churned in the following 12 months?

Uh I had the the sales and marketing individual leave

because did you keep your CFO or did you swap them out? Uh we actually so the uh we outsourced it to Kelly partners.

So you got rid of the existing one got a fractional outsourced. Uh what about like the ops person? That's the other

the ops person is the one who who remained the head of engineering. Um

so his his gripe was that I've been here for too long and I'm very happy to support uh and integrate with other systems

but don't ask me to do new research and new uh This is so different, right? Like it's so different.

Correct. So we had to go

to to do that. But then his his idea was that if somebody is coming up with the new

was that person on top of this head of engineering or

I kept it in the same.

So he had two reports. He had a head of engineering. What was your head of innovation or head of payments or

uh emerging tech?

Emerging tech. Okay.

So R&D basically. Right. So you satisfied the engineering guy so you wouldn't lose that IP but you had someone come in that could actually start building up some of this new stuff that you're talking about.

Okay.

So that's exactly what we did and then they eventually I mean there are still sparks at times

always. Yeah. Always. Yeah.

Uh but then in the grand scheme of things and you know one of the CEOs role is um at times a glorified HR

um I'd say a counselor

couples therapist maybe.

Yeah pretty much. pretty much it's like uh you know you know I was in a meeting and this is how you know this

they said this he said that okay let's

let's unwind and let's talk because we don't want to digress into this thing it's like a family right

uh but then I make sure that one I don't

go overboard favoring anyone

y

and at the same time I believe that every conversation phone call email it needs to have a conclusive outcome and a direction. Why? Why did you choose to make them peers? Why not put the new guy on top? I'll tell you why. Because um doing that, I mean, it's it's insanely brave to do that, by the way, but it sends a message that this is the new direction of the organization, but I agree it risks your head of engineering leaving, getting upset, and you losing that IP. Why did you not put them on top? Firstly is um there is always it's all about if you draw two circles

it's all about how much of is an overlap right

if you make sure that it doesn't overlap more than 30%. Yeah,

that's the right way to strengthen because we already had a very strong customer base. They trusted

in this individual. They were very comfortable to pick up the phone and says, "Hey, you know, I can't see anything on my screen. What's happening?"

Yeah.

I didn't want to send a message out who would also refer us to other customers to say,

"Oh my god, this new guy is getting rid of people left, right, and center." Now if the sales and marketing for example says no no from now on this is what we uh we are heading towards like

that's not going to happen like no it is.

Yeah.

Oh I'm I'm out of here though.

It was nice knowing you. That's how simple it is.

But just on the engineering guy before we move off there. Um so I totally hear you right because from just from a pure risk mitigation like you want to you always want to play to those egos, right? M

like you don't want to upset them. Engineers, I'm an engineer. You can be you can be you can be a funny bunch.

Yeah.

Um so that kind of makes it. But then you'll have an organization where you'll have almost like two engineering departments, right?

Yes.

How do you manage that?

So one is uh is it's pretty straightforward, right? So

um one is an emerging tech. we either they come up with an idea or it's the demand from the market or somebody's vision uh or it's a matter of integration. It's like okay these people have solved this problem

um and now they want to work with us. So, hey, emerging tech, can you

see if we can integrate and do this?

Then the other tech department is like, okay, I' I've come up with this smart bulb.

Yeah.

That fits into the old lamp

and there's a basic app that has on and off button. I have done my part.

Y

I need someone to take it from there so they can move on to the next

project. Y

while this person says you know above on and off switch

I can even make it change colors.

Mhm.

If there is a market out there so suddenly now we have a commercial team and says okay let me find out

don't start working on it.

But they may come back and say is look

people don't want different colors they want it to be automatically coming on and off based on the timing.

Mhm.

Can you do that?

Yeah. If I had to go back to the the emerging tech then suddenly you are evolving the existing tech rather than emerging from completely new. How effective is that handover between like an cuz a lot of organizations try this right you've got an existing engineering department you can't change it that's too hard they're stuck in legacy they've got to maintain daily applications you they just can't do the new stuff if they want to they're just always too busy so the sound solutions okay cool I'll create a separate innovation department emerging tech department how do you make sure that handover happens right once they build something that then this engineering BAU department actually takes over that so uh some days this is where the glorified HR comes into into play but

I am a very strong believer of documentation

and uh in a platform where all the documentation is handed then handed over. So what happens is that

a lot of people call it sprint or whatever. So we have the milestones logged into let's say we use Atlassian so in Jira it's not like oh can I get this it's not like a restaurant where you go and says can I order this

and it just comes and says oh it doesn't taste like I expecting

we define the the milestones like okay at every checkpoint

you need to try this you need to do this so make sure that neither that person is digressing or you are not also

anchoring them down.

Um there's a constant reminder that I also do and I have a leadership uh connect with my leadership team only

where I'm a very open and transparent individual to a certain extent. I would share anything and everything that I can share without violating any privacy or anything or vision or distracting them about something.

I show them numbers. I show them strategy. I get their take their feedback sincerely.

As long as everybody is on board, they say you know

this is why we are going into this direction. But the new one is like how do you make sure the engineering team take on the innovation or the emerging tech and I think it's more than just systems right because I think what you got to do succeeded was you need to get these guys to be intellectual peers with each other that they actually mutually respect each other so if this guy builds it this guy will take it on how did you do that how have you got that working

there is there is still um so end of the day it's always the case where one individual will would just say you know this is the outcome we want which is the internal customer it's me or ops team or the customer

y

um then I have them initially discuss how

mh

like what are the pathways right this is where the most of the struggle is

because they all want to get to the the different way

and they'll have different mindsets right one one would have a tech payment mindset one would have a

oh simplest thing is one says okay I don't think that python is the right platform to write a code and this and that blah blah blah

then as the leader of the troop you need to step in and says okay

why are you against Python or I don't know how to support Python if we make something in Python

what if I get you somebody to support Python you understand blah blah would you be able to have a conversation

and the bigger thing is that is that a longer and more tedious and a painful way or it's a shorter way and a better way

the stuff you're talking about. I wonder if that's the symptoms like that's that's the symptoms, right? We're bickering over stuff which is actually not of consequence.

What's the actual root of that problem between those two kind of those two kind of teams? Um so nowadays most the businesses have have split the the emerging tech and the support separately

and technically you know there should not be in the support team because nothing should break and nothing should require fixing

but they always like oh

you know they they didn't make it right so now I'm out there fixing it. Um but it does happen. Nothing is is fail safe and 100%.

I think it's it's more about everybody grew up in a different mindset and went to different environments and we made

How have you weave them together

with the vision? I I've always focused on a very very clear

what vision did did what vision did you get them to buy into?

Is that milestone like this is the grander vision we so for example I'll give an example that Uh there's a business called Easy Park um which offers Yeah. which offers an app.

Now there are 5 million Easy Park app users and somebody come up with an idea that if I'm an easy park app user I drive into Lancco and I drive out of Lancco I should get a push notification

that hey ticket list your camera captured me going in your camera captured me going out

and this is the money you took. I'm never going to be in touch.

Then the concept is uh and not getting you too tech is that do we push or do we pull? Yeah.

Right. What what is the right way?

The vision is easy park app user in out push notification payment.

Mhm.

Let's see how we get there.

Mhm.

Right.

And this is the timeline.

Yeah. without getting into resistance and stuff like that. The the most important one is I had to sell it to them say why this is important.

Yeah.

Is it going to make our product more profitable and sellable?

Right. And now that has become a foundational question that if anybody comes up with an idea

the internal question is like

we will eventually have to answer. Is it making money out of it? Exactly. Or make it more sellable.

Yeah.

And if the answer is no,

why bother?

Mhm.

If this answer is yes, and they're like, "Okay, I have my way and I have we have your way. So, let's find our way."

Mhm.

Because there is no question about it that this is a good idea. We need to get there.

So, you win some, you lose some. I have it's a it's the culture you set up and and you know I' I've also um realized now being involved in many few businesses that

you can sense the culture the moment you talk to three or four people

I can even say what the CEO of that business would be like

if I speak to the leadership team or even a technician's boots on the ground

that what is your culture and how is it you Is it is it really a a techdriven or the labor driven or the fist on the table driven uh culture or not?

And for me it's more of a cause driven

the cause is if it makes our solution more sellable and profitable

that's good enough and that's the culture

and then that's enough for those two guys to work together. they have made their piece and for now it's been three years they've been working for a while. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And and um what I think is also working is um I mean co taught us a lot a lot of good things a lot of bad things.

Yeah.

But um the emerging uh tech head of emerging tech is sits in Melbourne.

Mhm.

Every now and then we get him and he spends time here and your engineering team's in Sydney.

Is in Sydney. Y

I also feel that when people are not in their face at all the time and looking what are you doing what are you doing

sometimes separation is good

is good

is good you so

and so the head of emerging tech is his team you've built one in Melbourne with him or is his team's in Sydney as well

uh bit of both so he has people who you know we now again the co thing it's like okay let's find the best

everywhere y

right doesn't matter where geographically I mean you know if they're in Sydney there's there's an office.

Yep.

If they're in Melbourne, there's a place.

Mhm.

But end of the day with this virtual calling and screen sharing and all these things and like messaging and emails and stuff like that,

it's a virtual room,

right? I mean and um they all are I mean there are days where they're like oh I mean simplest thing is um I love the dark theme on my devices

and then the head of head of head of um emerging tech

is saying it's putting me to sleep

so I'm going to have our dev team also have a lighter theme y

and I said does it make our product more sellable profitable he's like I'm sure that if you ask customers Not everybody likes the dark theme. It's like who doesn't like dark theme? Then I I had uh some of our engineers go and talk to our customers.

Funny enough, they come back and says, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please make sure that there is an option."

So then I also made logical sense like why are Apple devices or any other still have this auto or optional theme because there must be some takers not everybody likes back,

right?

So said the answer came back and I was like fair enough you made that point. So now you go ahead and do it, right?

So you've got those two teams working together. How come the head of sales and marketing didn't work out? How come you weren't able to convince them or or were they was the performance not high enough to warrant the effort to convince them?

Um no, I don't think it's it's the way um we currently have you know very clear process that first and the foremost thing is the foundation is to at the prospect level. The more work you do. Yep.

The easier it is at the tail end, right? Tell it. You cannot force a decision of a customer. Everybody has a choice. But then

I remember that when we were buying a new bed,

um the store, we must have gone to like a half a dozen stores, right? And

you know how women shopping is, but you don't have to see everything.

Yeah. At the end of the day when we were having a cup of tea at home and assessing that, you know, which one did you like?

Yeah.

The only thing that my wife and I remember was the girl who was superstar.

Mhm.

In attending us and and we didn't even remember which beds she showed, right?

She never threw. And what I what I really like and what we have now is

if you're a customer, if you ask me, it's like, well, tell me why ticket list is better than your competitor.

Right?

Some people love that question and they embark on the journey of let me tell you how bad

this other product is.

Yep.

That's not how you convince somebody to buy your product because it's

it's the best of the worst bunch,

right? I mean was that salesperson's method successful?

Uh it wasn't. Uh there are some people who actually it it may work in some very minor cases because

if you if you had let's say if you had a Samsung TV

giving you so much trouble so much trouble

and somebody comes and says oh my god you have Samsung I feel bad for you blah blah you know I have a TCL but I don't want to talk about it let me let let's winge about your Samsung TV.

M

then you suddenly have connections like okay uh we both don't like Samsung

and you're selling TCL I'll consider it.

Yeah.

Right. But the not that that's not

how long the sales guy not being successful for. Was it quite a while or was it

No, didn't even take more than less than four four months because I kept saying that we we went to the meetings together.

Mhm.

And very very quickly they um digress to the different conversation. It's like oh yeah yeah that oh my god I heard there are a lot of problems and I we don't talk.

It's like then what else do you talk about?

How long had the sales person been there for?

Uh almost 3 years. And how come the prize co hadn't got rid of them if they weren't succeeding?

Again, if you don't know what is the right or the better way, then you just think this must be the way.

But sales people performance is so black and white, right? Like everything else is great. Engineering is gray, HR is gray,

fin come to think of it, they may like to engage into that that

let's complain conversation

and at some cases it it has worked.

Yeah.

Uh but then they don't know in some cases why they because the customer won't come back to you. It's like, oh, I'm not going to buy from you because you complain and and talk crap about other product. They're like, oh no, no, we found a better one. you know, people have that thing. Sometimes they're just not given a feedback. They're like, "Why not?" Then in that

So, I think I think the nuance of of why people do that is um some people mistake things that feel good for things that feel bad.

Mhm. And then they actually crave things that feel bad cuz some somewhere in their mind that flip that switch just totally flipped the wrong way. And that's why some people like winging about stuff.

Yeah, that's correct. It actually makes you feel bad,

but then you crave that bad feeling more and more

and those people tend not to rise very high high up in organizations.

There's a definite ceiling for them.

Yeah.

So if your saleserson was there and they found an equal winger on the other side, I reckon that wer wouldn't have had a lot of influence. Yes.

So whatever deep relationships they built, they would have been with meaningless people

cuz the guys up on up high would probably not be of that personality type. the decision makers and I used to always tell them that he said oh you know we I speak to you Alex

I've been speaking with him almost every day for for an hour or so it's like firstly

Alex men must not a decision maker because if somebody has one hour you

trust me it's not a decision maker you

got probably nothing to do at the board and they want to chat to somebody

not even an influencer right so very very quickly we we Um in the early days um one of the board member put us in touch with uh you know his name is Simon he has um a business

and they do the sales training.

Yeah.

Um and and he taught us um a very simple but a very very great thing. It's like always

get to the bottom of B& B qualification which is called budget. Yep.

Authority need and time.

Mhm. and always know what is the next step. If you don't know what is the next step, that means you have lost control over the deal. It gets to a point where it's like I I don't want to stand here and find out when are you buying, when are you buying?

You have everything what it takes. You know where I am. I'm just a phone call or an email away.

Yep.

I'll leave it to you. So, we have a category in CRM is awaiting decision.

Yeah. And awaiting decision probably has no followup task.

Yeah.

Unless the customer has asked specifically.

They say, "I'll get back to you on Tuesday."

Like,

I mean, awaiting decision means the saleserson doesn't actually know what's happening.

Has somehow gone into a black box and they've just lost visibility

pretty much. So, um,

so, so that person left. Were you able to replace them with someone affected? Did you have to go through a few cycles? We had we had someone um who who is still uh with the business but in a contract capacity um

because he is also successful on the other layer on the management side and stuff like that.

Y

some businesses are are um you know sales cycles are pretty pretty lengthy and it's a lot to do with the relationship.

Mhm.

We also realized that

so why do you have a contract salesperson? And I thought that would be a core competence that you want to have internally have a full-time person dedicated towards that hold that hold that IP.

So what it is is that what um what we navigated the business a year and a half ago is

uh currently our head of operations who's also on commercial. He understand the tech very very very well

and uh I am probably the most vested into the have a vested interest into the business and it's growth

uh we realize that if you have one person doing everything

the sales team if I if I have if I break a sales process into two or three

sections

the first is lead

y

like you find about you know who who may buy

then second layer is the qualification like is that really a tire kicker or or buyer

right

when you find that this is not a tire kicker it's a real buyer

real deal y

you need to get somebody because we sell tech solutions

so there'll be a technical pre-sales person or a correct so then that is the best one who's coming from within who understand the tech because most of the customer when it's when you are actually they are qualifying you for the right solution or not

they're asking you the technical question

most of the sales people that unfortunately I've come across is they don't want to get into the depths of it

they want to move on to the next one like okay you know I found the I've done my my my pre-sale or this now you you do what you need to do convince them and then when they're ready to buy, I'll I'll re-engage.

How successful is that working?

Never.

Yeah.

Um

but then isn't that what you have now?

No. One person one person never works.

How successful is that method where you have a contract salesperson, they open open the door, find the prospect, qualify it, product person comes in, and then someone either these two guys close it at the end. Does that work for you guys?

Very very well. Yeah. So what is happening is that the the reason the person is on a on on a contract

or it it could be on a payroll doesn't matter but then because that the tail end is that uh it the reward is when you log into the business.

Yep.

The lead generation there's a lot of database and information available.

They are great into going and knocking a door and saying have you heard of this and this and that. get them excited. When it gets to a point, then the customer really will value that. Okay, now I'm really talking to someone who understands the solution.

Um, all the questions are not I'll get back to you or the moment you said I get back to you,

they're busy doing something else

and they may never talk to you ever again because they're busy.

Exactly. So and then the reason I am also heavily involved that that once they are very convinced with the tech

then it very very quickly evolves into the pricing negotiation. Yeah.

Right.

Who who does that is that the saleserson or is that you in this case?

So what I've done is that now the the saleserson doesn't do it. They they draft the the uh we have online portals. They just input their information.

Okay. And then that that portal spits out a proposal.

Y

then that proposal we walk them through.

Mhm.

At that time they start asking technical question. The initial lead genen person's job more or less is done. Yeah. Yeah. They're like okay you know they are talking.

Yeah. And um then the that's the typical organic stage and then from a tech

the tech starts to go away and then it's in very invariably the question comes to

hey you guys are great.

We love everything about your tech but why is it 10,000 more?

Yeah. Who's on who's at the table from your side during that conversation? Um so it starts with our sales commercial and operations individual person. Okay. Yeah.

Um and I have given him that you know

Mhm.

you have I'm throwing a number. You have 10% buffer.

Yeah. Here's your delegated authority for how much you

anything above 10%.

It's got to come to you.

You need to come to me.

Yeah. Um but then um he's he's very very smart also very good in negotiations and stuff like that and then

you know that there are chances he's like look I mean I I really either he sometimes comes to me and says look we really need this business

these guys are asking this much

here is our buffer

and this is I think we can do and this is something Bill that you can do do you want to have this conversation or you want me to take it

depending on the the quantum size of deal that I engage to make them important is like okay now we talking to the CEOs and the boss is here the boss car so now now and and this is the stage where I also make a point that I'm here

to seal the deal

this is not like we'll take it from here we'll think and come back

they know that this meeting is a decision making

you're dealing with like the CEO at this stage on their side or the head of whatever department it is

correct and literally the authority decision maker And I also counter question them like okay can you do it in 65

why

and they don't have an answer. It's like if you want to go to your CFO

Yep.

and and you want to win

Mhm.

that look everybody else is 70. Yep. Um I always tell this uh story to um those in a funny way and um that one time this this saleserson went on a sales trip and and comes back and

submits a reimbursement expense rumor and like okay you know flight and a taxi and a coffee and blah blah blah and there's

there's this hat of $35.

So the CFL says what the heck is this hat? Mhm.

The sales guy said, "Well, you know, it was a hot day and then, you know, I had to to get a hat."

It's like, "Well, you should have thought about it before. You know, I mean, I'm not paying for your hat."

The total was $835. Like, get rid of this hat, right?

Goes away and blah blah blah. And comes back in a couple of hours later, you know, fly this bl

there is no hat. It's like, "Uh-huh. The bottom is still 8:35."

He's like, "How is that?" Like you want the hat gone is gone. Find the hat.

That's exactly what happened. You want $65,000.

The hat is there.

Yeah.

You're just not seeing it. I'll put the hat somewhere else.

There's some other cost space.

So yeah.

So if you want to win,

I'll give you a reason to win today. But end of the day, even the cards, you know,

be in your package. There'll be some servicing. Everyone's got to make some money on the way through. And I think end of the day once the deal was done

we build the relationship. It's like look you you won

we are now into business.

Yep.

We are here to help you make money. Y

make your life simple.

This is associated with money.

Yeah.

And the whole focus is on that.

Yeah.

And that has been working very very very well. We also have the lead gen management.

So when the project is delivered and is handed over to operations to maintain it, that person also goes and says, "Hey, how did you go? What's the experience?"

And that's that's like a one-off, is that quarterly, is that like what's the cadence for that?

Uh it all depends. Now we are you know um there are some customers who are we do a quarterly touch point whether sometimes an inperson visit or

uh this also helps them the new leads right like if there is a we put

happy do they know someone else that wants something

we put in a hotel in a Sydney Olympic Park

and when they are looking for in that area for other hotels like hey you know how how how are have a copy.

That's what the lead genen salesperson does those account management.

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it's just the touch like hey, is there is there anyone else?

And how high in the organization are they able to build a relationship? Is that with the CEO, with the head of ops, with like a parking person like how how

I think it goes to a level of uh whomever is feels friendly with that individual. M

um so sometimes it's the the head of facilities, sometimes the head of engineering in the hotel, sometimes the GM himself or herself.

Yeah, it's whoever has the time, cares enough about the parking system. We we'll go and meet them. I mean we have we have received recommendations where

the the GM says oh you know talk to the the the head of FNB.

Y

because um her wife works into blah hotel as a CFO or or finance manager. So you go and talk to them and that person says, "Oh yeah, yeah, you know, go and talk to them and then now

few months later we we go there." So

and so and what depth do you keep in these customers cuz CEOs were super busy, right?

You've got a lot of customers, you got stuff. You get the mind space for that.

As much as I not as enough as I would like to

uh obviously you get called in for crisises. Every co gets those emails. Exactly. Everyone does. and and I I I at times feel bad that, you know, I'm I'm always talking to the customer

uh wearing PPS and taking punches and making sure that they're they're happy, right? I mean,

and I always leave many customers saying they're like, "We need to meet on a good note."

Yeah.

And they're like, "Oh, yeah.

Let's have a nice lunch."

Let's have a nice lunch.

And um I don't think there are enough days in a in a in a year to have that nice lunch. But um what we try to do is um we narrate a success stories as well as you know the that the struggles. So let's say there there have been a cases where

we told them early days we told them the story that this is your current expense with the old ticketed painful system. If you go here this is a retail investment.

6 months later I get a call. I was like, "What happened now?" And the GM is saying,

"You dread the phone call to see caller ID." Something like, "Okay, something's broken. Do I answer? Do I pretend?"

Well, I actually I'll be honest with you. I didn't answer, right? And then I went to my person.

Hey, what's wrong? This guy's calling me.

He's calling me. Is there He's like, "I don't know.

Quick, lo, check, make."

So then 15 minutes later, it's like, "Oh, sorry. You know, I couldn't take a call then.

I was in this fake meeting. I never lie. I never come up with something. I just like always say the truth. Not all truth need be said. So I always say, look, I couldn't take your call.

You don't need to know reasons, right? Fact, I couldn't take your call,

but here I am. What is it?

He said, "Oh, I just wanted to say that we just came back from an core group meeting and

we had um a forecast that we are going to make x amount of revenue in 12 months." Y

we're about to hit that in

so I don't know what magic you guys are doing but it's amazing now we have double the forecast

and I wanted to personally call you and thank you that if you're in the area you know blah blah blah and I said look

super ray fantastic

this is a good story right among the many it's like you need to get involved type of thing to this one and then we said okay why don't we do this it's not about that I'm a pat on the back hungry but I'm going to go there and says, "Look, now that I've helped you,

Mhm.

can we use you as a case study?

Yeah.

To talk to others,

at least you can do that." He's like, "Oh, as long as you don't publish the actual numbers number,

sure." And those are the stories that that I love to get involved in bankon and I think everybody everybody should as well.

Um it's not just that,

oh darn, let's be the fire truck and then only go out sometimes fun to be on fire on the Christmas day and having fun with the kids as well.

I wonder if you go back to our original problem, right? Like how do we introduce new payment tech to clients? Let me suggest something to to you. Tell me if this lands. So

I get your sales process, right? You've got your lead generation generating person. He gets you in the door. You have some engineering, pre-sales, commercial ops. You'll come in over the top if you need to to help kind of close the deal. Um, and then the lead generator who's probably I'm going to just infer the depth of product knowledge is is quite shallow. Like their expertise is how do I find someone who's looking for assistant, not how do I do an organizational change from a tickulous parking to a payment gateway?

Um, that that's your expertise, right? Like like like that's your thing as the CEO. If you're have that level of person doing the quarterly meetings, how do you expect the client to go through this organizational change you want to get them through? Cuz my view would be you're the only guy that can actually take them on that journey and account manager can't. Is that fair to say?

It's um yes and no.

Yeah. Tell me why. Yeah,

I think I think uh what it is is I'll uh I mean the again I use the the food and car analogies as an example. You know,

you remember the old days where you go and buy a car, you greet it by the front, the salesperson is like, "Oh, can I go for a spin?" You go out for a spin. They're sitting in the car explaining blah blah.

Fine. Let's um let's do the negotiation. I have some questions. My wife has some question. Can it connect Bluetooth blah blah? Oh, let me get the tech guy and then he can answer some or senior. Oh,

so then another person has answer some techy question because this person really is the

front welcome.

Oh, what is the deal you're looking this is change over I'm looking for? Let me ask my manager. The GM comes up. It's like okay, you know, so I'm standing and then he's sitting

and then they're negotiating and then now I'm suddenly negotiating with the GM blah blah blah.

Hopefully many in most of the cases you shake hands like okay let's we agree on this blah blah

and to say we'll take it from here and then once you do delivery here's Jason is going to do explain you when you come for to pick up the delivery. Yep. phase number four

and once you take the delivery then John Doe is our service manager

just tell them you know they would know that you bought it from here and they will always be taken care of.

Yeah.

You never see the guy who actually came with the test drive.

Mhm.

Ever after buying a car. Yeah.

True.

Does that does that is not any disappointment, but if the same person

calls you 3 months later, it's like, "How's your car?"

Yeah.

Do you have a friend?

Who wants to buy?

That's That's tried and tested. We're kind of replicating the same thing.

So, I agree with that strategy, right? That's a great way to get additional leads. But my challenge to you is that um getting new leads, that's fantastic. They'll build a great relationship. That parking manager, FM manager will move somewhere else and they'll remember this guy and they'll take him along with them. I totally get that and I'm sure that would be super successful.

But to explain to an organization like the original problem was like how do I get my clients to buy into this payment tech and come on this journey with me?

I reckon you've got the competence to explain that to somebody very effectively, very convincingly. Mhm.

I reckon a saleserson who's focused on leads and relationships might not have that ability. Is is that fair to say?

Yeah, I would say so. Like like I said, that is where it all depends on at what stage in a deal that I can make myself inject

assuming that you assuming that you had unlimited time, right?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be the first point of contact to explain.

I wonder is is that why you're not getting the traction that you're getting? So, so I'll give you an an alternative world. An alter alternative world is that you suddenly had all this free time. Everything operationally was running running amazingly and you could go meet your clients once every 3 months, 6 months, paint the vision of this payment and take them on that journey. I reckon you'll do a better job of that than your salesperson would do.

Yeah. So what what we are changing now is now we are also now we have for next 6 months you know 2026 first 6 months we already have a calendar

like this are the touch points so me and our ops and commercial individual

uh once every fortnight we do two-day run to where the customer

findable have some coffee

and the customer sometimes sometimes like um oh I'm the GM of the tell I never hear something about parking so must be good but if you're in town

I am busy but talk to blah or yeah sure I'll I'll have and talk to you

so what we have now done or going to be but doing and now doing more of and agreed to your advice

before we jump onto the future plan do you reckon that's a correct diagnosis as to why it hasn't succeeded to date

so now uh

is is that the correct reason you have not got traction yet in that

or is it more nuanced? Is it something else?

No, we have got I mean last last 12 months has been phenomenal.

What's the depth that you want?

Um it's on the right track.

Yeah.

It has not gotten to where I wanted it to be. M

is it because my expectation was too big or too high

or we are I mean that it depends who you ask right I mean

but um

but then is it a problem like is that a problem that exists that you know cuz original one was like how do I in intro payment tech to my clients

it does it does it's the prime payment that does exist

and uh

so what I'm trying to get to I'm trying to get to like what's the core cause rights assuming the tech makes sense assuming that's what the market wants assuming that that's where is going for

like why haven't we been able to succeed in that? It's a good question and then you know question back to you is you know if we if we change the the the hats

in your perception do you think that going and talking to the customer who is already invested into a tech

y

and talking to them

about the new and emerging tech

is what you're suggesting or you suggesting that the lead gen to talk to the new potential buyers

uh and and introducing them to the new tech

is more effective.

I think you want to do both, right? Like I mean

the reason I reckon lead genen will be effective is because when people go out to market again, they're always going to look for something more than they're getting today.

Um so if they've got standard tickets, they want tick list. If they've got tick list, they want the next thing. Well, let's just assume payments and apps are the next thing. that client will probably be primed up would have done some pre-ress research and will naturally ask about those kind of things.

Mhm. Um so that lead genen totally makes sense, right? And you can collateralize that that's standard and someone a good saleserson can do that with like a good pre-sales ops ops backup. What I think is much more nuanced but super valuable is your existing clients, right? Let's just say they're going to keep you for 10 years. We're five years into this journey. If I was you, I think that thinking, how do I get my hooks into these guys?

Yes.

How do I make this I know a B2B TOC. So, how do I make sure every one of their customers has the tickless marketing app? So, in 5 years, they just can't leave me, right? I'm so valuable. If they want to leave me, they got to get their, you know, 100,000 residents of Lane Cove to go from ticklas parking to easy park, right?

Or they all listening. The devil, you know, is better than the devil you die.

Oh, totally. Right. So that is a much more nuance complex conversation um to say look I know we're only 5 years in right but I want a bit of money from you um to buy this new text I reckon it's going to do this and it's going to solve this problem and solve this and solve that. That is a much more complex conversation

and in your opinion

and sorry and that's a conversation I reckon someone of your caliber would need to have.

I agree. I agree. Making sense. You're making sense. But then again, it's it's a little bit of um

and this is something you can shed light on. It's a chicken and egg thing, right? Like, okay, um I want the business to grow.

Y

and um I would be able to go and touch all these customers or all eastern seabor and Perth and and everywhere else.

Uh once the business has grown and I have spare time and money.

Yep.

Uh But until I don't I'm going to stay focused.

Oh, but then it's not getting the traction I or it's not it's it's the business has doubled in last 12 months.

Y

I wanted it

quadrupled.

Yeah,

but it's not quadrupling.

Uh is it because of I haven't been out and about and focused too much. Oh, but I can't because you got this problem, you got this problem, you got this problem, this person designed.

Well, I don't I don't think that the people people problem. What I'm what I'm more thinking is like okay now tech is stabilized and this is what is happening

and now um I can I afford to be away from from the business

and I have made myself the reason I'm saying future is now I'm at a stage where I can confidently say that if I am

away from physically away from the office space

two days a week

out and about I know it won't derail failed.

Y

it has taken this long

and I can see that you know that the it's not quadrupled but only doubled

because

I haven't done probably that

rather than focusing here.

So I'll I'll tell you why I've got authority to answer this question then I'll kind of give you my two cents. So my confidence has gone from you know running a $100 million public company to being on boards. And what I learned and and I'm sure you learned this as you're on these startup boards is

the competence goes from how do you run an organization? How you know how do you be a CEO to how do organizations run?

Like what is the similarity in these melodies?

Mhm.

Cuz um you know half a dozen company boards like you just get to watch the movie five or six times at once. And one nuance that I found with CEOs perhaps in your situation is you're doing two jobs at once.

Yes. You got to be this external innovator, salesperson, visionary and you got to make everything operationally run. And that's why I found the organizations that have a pairing and that might be your CFO, might be a head of ops, someone that you have implicit trust from and is almost what they call the implement.

Mhm.

So they'll just make sure everything operationally runs.

Yes.

Free you up. So when clients complain, they actually complain to them first. When someone has an HR problem, they go to them when they need expenses. When they got get that hat approved, right? um they go to that person and that then frees you up to go look at the external world cuz um the external world problem is 10x harder than the internal world problem. Um but that's where you've got the competence but like a head of ops might not have the competence for the external world.

Yeah.

So that's what I find happens is um when you grow big enough and you get the right to IC that's where I see it working.

Yeah. I think that that's that that you hit on the the nail on the head there that you know the 2 IC has always is is the key.

And um there's a nuance to the 2C that I found as well is um

so if you look at your executive team I think generally there's two types of people. Have you heard the cannons ammo analogy?

Yep.

Yep. Um so just for people who haven't so you got two types of employees. You got one that are cannons that you can lally give a problem to and they'll totally solve it. you got ammo that they can't actually solve something by themselves though they can help someone else solve it. So the question you want to ask yourself is my two I see that cannon

in order to so currently uh yes so he

a lot of hesitation as you said that

yeah because I'll

explain explain why

and and I'll I will um

there are times when I know that he can solve and could have solved this this issue.

Yeah. But then there is also still the relationship is constantly building and evolving because the solution is how long you been together with this five years. He got history got but then what happened was that the the solution has he has his way and I don't want him to be me right he I love the way his identity and the problem solving method is

but there are times where I have to

um have that trust to say in this particular situation

this is how you handle it and and it's consistent, right? It's that that trust on the 2IC is very very very important.

I don't think I have a trust issue, but it is it is to a point where

I also don't want to burn him saying now I am off doing this while you

take care of all all that. I at times it's feel myself torn that you know I want to help him

and I don't want to just let him be until he because there are people who would who would never come to you.

Yep.

You know what is happening you're seeing you know during the email would never come to you. You're like ask for it.

It's very easy for me to solve

but at the same time I don't want to feed them a fish. I want to rather feed them how to fish.

But what are you doing to build your two IC's capability? Right.

Yeah. So,

is that a conscious effort on your part today?

My Yes, it is. It is.

Uh last 12 months, uh the focus was to that

um the the life happened. He they had a he had a baby boy

and and life changes.

Um you know, the the the baby started going to to daycare and came brought home all kinds of virus. So then to us, he's gone for a week. M

so uh it's getting to a point where again you're so right about the 2 IC

the consistency and the capability are the two thing that they both have to be at par like

you have to have that trust and then you have to have that consistently

it's sometimes it's there and sometimes some days it's not but then him getting cooked for a week. That's a very narrow narrow period of time over a 3 or 4 year time scale. Is it is it consistently there? Um so that's the thing right that uh when life happens

although as I said earlier my EQ is claiming to be zero I also can't believe

I also don't want to be just like well I don't care if your wife and child is sick and struggling

you're my two I Hey,

you need to be here,

right? It's 9:00. Whereabouts are you?

I'm just changing diapers. You know, can I can I be in, you know, I'll be there in first thing, but I'm keeping an eye on my business.

Let Let me ask though, if if you're if you're a crook, do do you go to work? Do you still jump on emails? How you doing?

I tell you why. Let me perhaps suggest why is the importance of the company is above the importance of other things in your life. M

is is that kind of fair to say?

Yes.

And being a CEO of a company that's going through a huge growth phase, right? It becomes everything.

Yes.

It becomes everything. And perhaps with your two IC at this specific microcosm of his life. Um rightfully so. Maybe company's just not number one. That is I mean I I don't know his personal life but

could be the case could be the case and and you would one would never know um that

it has to become naturally he has to see the vision

uh

it's a choice for him it's a choice that you can guide him towards or if you can't get him there maybe still a fantastic two I But then you need to build capability around him.

I was um having similar conversation with uh one of the board of director was my mentor as well. Um the thing is that because the business um doubled

uh it's something that him and I can easily handle

although I am looking at quadruple. Mhm.

He knows that the double business is easy for him to handle.

If it was quadruple with the baby,

there would be a different face and name.

Uh but for now, he's like until it gets there.

Mhm.

This is fine.

Yeah.

Um is two people pushing the same growth agenda better than one? Obviously. Mhm.

Do I want to burn him because he's not pushing that 4x agenda while

he can do this 2x comfortably?

This is where sometime you win some you lose some you give. It's like okay this stage in life the business is not Forex

and I don't want to blame this particular

behavior to be not there

but he is very well

but the symptom of it is is is you're not getting the time you need

to take your customers through this or this huge information.

True.

Like that's that's the end result. And there's many different reasons.

Um but but that's the end result.

True.

And is that okay?

No. It's not it has been on my my mind. So that what is happening now?

So so what does one do like how how does one so actually before even do is is that is that the solution you think to free you up to be able to take your company.

It always is. It always is the two I

so that's how we'll get your clients to come on this journey is by you being there.

So what has been happening and this is where uh now you know identify the problem

look for the solution.

Yeah. Identify the solution, plan to execute the solution. The solution is to hand it over to 2 and trust.

Yeah.

And then while me being out and about, sometimes with him, sometimes without.

Yep.

Uh there are two ways forward and I'm preparing the business to do two ways. One is bootstrap, right? So the growth 2x to 4x will continue.

Y

uh and I'll will be the one the driving force to do exactly that. And that is why I said in the future I planned

uh if I had met you two years ago I would have known that you know this is the case and I I do that

we'll talk again in three years there'll be different problems in three years time don't worry.

Yeah. Um but it because because that didn't happen and now

I have to learn a bit hard way.

Uh what's what's uh and the one is a bootstrap

and then other one is also inorganic growth where we either acquire

or merge into some um bigger to become the dominant

someone else. Yep. Totally.

And if that's the case, then the direction for

him is also very clear that you know this is the his pathway forward and this is where the business

and that segment of the business will grow.

Yeah.

Um whether he has the capacity and a willing to absorb more to become

the two I see off the bigger umbrella.

Time will tell.

Yep. But uh if not then I'm sure there will be uh my eye will be on the two IC who

you'll have options in life. You'll have options.

Yeah.

Because I think no matter what you do in this next journey, is it getting to payments? Is it buying other buying M&A? Is it you know expanding to other regions? Um I always think you want your best people on your hardest problem.

Mhm. And this is the hardest problem and you're probably the best person to do it and you just can't do it if you get caught into dayto-day.

Yes.

You have to be almost able to forget about the office for two days cuz you're out fighting the battles externally and someone else is fighting all the fires for you internally. And tell me if this lands is is that the problem to solve?

It is.

And if you solve that, will that solve all the other things we're talking about around getting clients on this journey? You getting time space with them? So at this juncture I mean I completely agree and if I compared the notes

uh what you arrived in our conversation 2 hours I had arrived over my experience in last

8 months.

Mhm.

Uh I may not know exactly I know the execution plan I know where

to go how to go about and what would happen here.

Yeah. uh I have some plans and ideas to do do that but that is the path way forward and I couldn't agree that

um whether it's a new customer uh conversations or the old ones

I have been engaging myself more on the new customer conversations

I mean both I mean both are great use yeah

and then or the the the existing ones um you're absolutely right that I need to be that It's been in your mind for eight months. How come it has it's not a solved problem?

Uh because there were other alignment issues uh to solve because what happens is that when you we were fixing the text stack and getting the solution ready.

I didn't also want to go out and sell a dream to the customer. Yeah.

This industry in a mobility.

Um

well the problem isn't to sell the dream to the client. The problem is to free you up.

Yes.

How come that wasn't solved like 8 months ago when you kind of came to that conclusion?

Um I I thought I mean being a father of kids

it didn't take me one year

to you know sometimes people if this is where the the promotion line is and this is where the fire line is

you just float in between.

Yeah. just enough not get enough right so now now it's like okay now while I'm fixing working on the tech stack and emerging in this solution I package it

while I'm also thinking at the growth potential and things like that

now that I have all that ready now that that bar has shifted up totally right so if he's still floating here he's obviously below that

so either he fixes his game

or

not so the last bit of tough to delve into. So, how do how do we help him? How do we get him there? How do we get him from here to here to support the next level of growth?

I it's been weighing on my mind to quite some time. Like there are two ways to that I work with the team in terms of motivation, right?

One is that you show them the grander picture

and the strategy and the vision behind it. Mhm.

If they are on board, they would undoubtedly step up.

Mhm.

Or they would say that look, I 100% agree with you right now.

There is nothing more important than a family

and it's taking its toll.

Totally honorable, totally respectable. And and if you want me to go out with a screwdriver still toes, I'll do it

for next 24 months.

Yeah. because I believe in the business and this is what I want to do.

Um that's one one possibility. The other possibility is that uh that person would come and says look I really admire your trust belief in me but I don't really have what it takes

to to to go to the next

they internally see it. Yeah.

Um and I have an individual who said I want to be I want to do this. I want to do this blah blah blah. And then he he tried it for six or eight months and then he he came to me and it's like look

I don't know if it was a one-way street.

Uh but I think I was performing so much better physically, mentally and then I'm more happier there. So if still is up for

uh for takes I'll like to go back and I understand blah blah. and then very happily that you know we put him back a little bit senior and he's he's still comfortable there. So this if he is honest um and say yes I can do it

right

then the bigger question is that if he says no I can this I'm happy easy

he says yes I'm going to do it

why should I trust

I think the problem actually exists before that point so um I think only one out of 100 people have true introspection I think it's just 1% of the population that can actually see themselves

see what they're good at. See what they're not good at. So that's why I think those motivation thing that you kind of mentioned like if you go to like a Tony Robbins thing, right? You're totally pumped, you're great, you're excited for about 3 months and then you totally forget it.

Yeah.

So the analogy I'll give is it's not about a motivation. It's cold level indoctrination.

Unpack that.

Yeah. So have you ever bought anything from Salesforce?

Yeah. From the moment you call, it's a pre-gone conclusion you're going to sign up.

It is like it is a preone conclusion, right? Because everybody in the organization has cultlike indoctrination that we need to sell. It's in the name sales and we're going to get this customer through and everybody takes you through that journey. So then you think about how do I get cultlike indoctrination about this vision, right?

Here's where the organization is today. Here's we want to get to um and this is actually a quite a solved problem. Have you heard of um enterprise operating systems?

Yes.

So there's lots of um just for those who haven't um so the thing with management is that

like we've only kind of had to manage people for like 30 years, right? 30 40 years in our parents generation like people just stayed in their job forever.

100 years ago you probably didn't own any land. So you just had to work for the local government or local king. And so people have had choices in jobs for a very very narrow slither of time.

So we actually have to work as managers to solve that and management in totality is not completely solved. In 100 years it probably will be but it's not a solved thing about how do you get 20 people completely aligned to one idea and enterprise operating systems. There's about three or four different theories out there now. It's how people have thought about how do I get 20 people completely aligned cult level indoctrination into one vision. Um, so the way we do it and something comes on the board of it's it's a combination of you know monthly meetings, weekly meetings, daily standups where everybody almost verbatim repeats the vision. This is my part. I've got to get I don't know the number of leads I've got to get, number of installs I've got to get, how much cash I need to collect from the client, how much cash needs to be in the bank and review those metric literally every single day.

Hammer it into that.

Yeah. completely hammer into it cuz what you'll find is that person that doesn't have that introspection cuz introspection takes years cuz they'll lie to themsel for the first year being like I'm that person then they'll struggle for a year and then last year they'll wait for you to sack them.

Um but when they get cult like indoctrination they see everybody else is buying into it more often than not they'll actually opt out themselves. They'll be like I actually don't fit in this cult.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was like, that's the individual.

It's like, okay, this is being hammered into everybody's this heads. This is the way forward.

Yeah,

this isn't me. It doesn't fit. I just don't fit.

So then I think what what you might consider is how do I do that on the operational side of my business?

How do I get that cultlike indoctrination? Here's where we are. We're a tickless marketing system, the best, blah blah blah. We're getting to here. So this is what needs to happen. Here's my monthly objectives, my quarterlies. Here's my weeklies, my dailies. cuz you want to shorten that time that it helps you figure out if this person can succeed

because it'll be so sad if it takes two years, right?

Yeah.

Then you got to change them out.

And I don't know about you, but despite my best efforts recruitment, I'm still 50/50.

I still get it wrong half the time.

It's a playable coin. I I completely agree with you.

And I don't believe anyone who's any better.

And then if you have to get someone else, well, you probably get it wrong half the time. So you lose another year and a half, two years, and you'll be in 2030.

It's painful. Yeah. Yeah.

You'll be in 2030 and you'll be like, "Oh, I still don't have this sorted." So, you want to compress the time and maximize this guy's chance of success.

Yeah. No, I agree with you. I think I think that that is the plan. It's a little bit of

you also have a at times self-doubt which

you know it's it's not a bad thing to to have go through these notions. It's like I was thinking do I have

explain self-doubt a bit more. Yeah. So for example, you know, um I always learned that um if somebody says, "How is this email?"

Uh you it's never going to be the exactly the even if you ask an AI today, it's not going to be exactly the way you would write it.

It will be very close. And the question to ask yourself is, does this get the job done?

Right? And if the answer is yes, let it go.

Yeah.

Otherwise, you'll be typing every single email and every single communication, right? And same story that like if I'm not there

is it does he get the job done?

It may not

be the conversation that you would have the way you would have or

you know the the the offices and everything is not operating the way it would operate if you were there.

But the you know it takes a lot it gets you know the larger goal gets achieved. So then the question is like do I have a trust issue and that's why I'm not letting it go but if I do let it go they would be just fine.

So I understand that part I don't understand the self-doubt part of that comment. The self-doubt is that do I have a shortcoming of the trust issue but I'm not they're ready.

I can be away for two days

but then I'm not and I'm telling that like I can't go because I know they will derail.

Has it ever derailed? No.

Is it self-doubt or doubt on them cuz they're very two very different things.

Uh that is that is the the selfch check right because it's hard to to to know.

Is it justifiable? Let me ask that question. as in

is is that doubt on them justifiable in maybe maybe not. That's that's where the question mark is, right? Like

like do I really want to taste that poison

or is it a poison? like what if so now this is what I've done transition right I don't want to do anything sudden change what I have been doing is

I have been going out to

uh initial engagement with the lead gen individual to say I or this this is a perfect example

this afternoon I've told them that I'm actually in a podcast I won't be able to take phone calls or read messages is uh I would come back, you know, to the surface at 4:30, 5:00, then I'll have a look.

Um good luck.

Yeah.

And I'm very comfortable and I have, you know, not constantly thinking of what must be happening. you're not worried about your messages on your phone

and then it's I'm sure that there are messages and I'm sure there are emails and it's happening but I know for the fact that

it it wouldn't have blown up.

Yeah.

Right. Because I've been doing and transitioning out that that two hours will become half a day and then one day and then two days.

Yeah. So let me unpack that self-doubt a bit more. So I think what it would would be is um if you don't have the right people or don't have the right systems, don't have the right metrics, that self-doubt is completely justifiable. So that that doubt on them is completely justifiable.

Um the other thing that I find when you seem like a very competent person and the curse of confident people like us is that um you can do most anything better than most other people.

You probably can, right?

Yes.

You can probably write an email better. You can probably do a better sales proposal. you can probably do a better pitch, you can probably write a better strategy. Um, but just because you can do everything better, um, doesn't mean you should. And there's some stuff you just can't. That's why you need your two IC just to do that stuff for you. So, you need to figure out what stuff is it okay to be adequate in.

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's the funny you say that, you know, I had a funny incident. My um I went home one day. I was a little um grumpy and my uh wasn't having a cup of tea with my mom

and he said like what happened? Oh, you hired this engineer. He's just did this and blah blah blah. Why can't they just think?

And he's like if everybody thought the way you thought then you'll have 15 CEOs in the business. You know what I mean?

There's a reason you're in your job, right? Yeah. There's a reason you're in your job.

So that that cheered me. I was like, fair enough. But then, you know, I mean,

uh so you're spot on. It's like it's is is this uh is this a self-doubt or you need to understand like if they can if they can float in this

I'm I'm okay that's okay that's what's expected uh some people will naturally fall some people will naturally float um but part of it is is it depends what systems you've set up as as the leader so one of the things that I've somehow found a niche for me is um helping founders through that transition, right? How does a founder step out of business, still own the company, get a CEO in completely let go, which is I mean that's the next level, right? That's the that's next level delegation cuz it's that's their asset, right? That's going to make them rich one day.

And one of the nuances you want to figure out is um what level of visibility do you need to feel comfortable? What do I need to see every morning at 9:00 to know yesterday was okay?

And that's exactly been asking. So you know when you do the journaling

uh and if I look at what I was journaling 5 years ago to now that the obviously that the vision has changed that you know from

becoming a business leader to supporting a business leader

and that business leader is is exactly that that letting go because

I don't want to be the person who's just always there. The whole idea is somebody said that you know if if I don't make myself replaceable

I would never be able to grow up.

I think it's much more nuanced than that. I think what it is let me ask you a question. Does does your 2 IC know this is what Japa needs to see at 9:00 every morning to know the company's okay? do I need to know every day at 9:00 what the companies look like? Um, or

yesterday

like like what are the two three 20 metrics that Japa needs to see to to make him feel comfortable and not have to pick up the phone and call me?

Yes. And it is documented now

and and you get that on whatever cadence you need that

it is. It is documented. If you get that, why do you still need to have tighter controls? That means

because because now uh it's knowing what is needed and making it available because you didn't have a family pool

is a two separate thing. So while I know that this person needs to know this

and I won't be able to give it to him at 9:00.

Yeah.

Uh it might be 11:30.

Yeah.

So what is that person going to do because

I can't leave my baby.

So that means you're not getting the info that you need in in whatever cadence of time that you need that. M

and then that's a completely natural reaction for you to

not catastrophize might not be that bad but to wonder oh I wonder what's happening

oh I didn't see that I haven't seen that it's 10:00

yeah it's not a FOMO or anything and it's not doubt

uncertainty right

and the way CEOs solve uncertainty is you call people or you go talk to people you wander around the office and just tuss out the vines everything okay

so that's the thing that that's exactly what's been happening like I'll just I'll be there just out the wide then blah blah blah

but then

uh what if I can't walk around the office and and talk to

do you guys have like a daily standup?

Yes, every day 8:45. So that's another one that we so

I have started and implemented all the systems in place and this year has been

that journey. M

I have also started to intentionally

I am early riser

me and my dogs out

see the sun sun sunrise and then no matter rainill storm hopefully not rain

um but then um

but if you have this 8:45 you go through those metrics at 8:45 in the morning

yes

then why would there ever be a scenario at 10:30 that would not be in

8 8:45 toolbox meeting is to discuss who's going to do what and where and this is at that that level

and those metrics don't make make that meeting do they or

no no so now what it is is now uh thanks to read AI and stuff like that that nobody needs to then have that meeting go take notes and then and then share

it just done and then an email comes through which is the right part of the the AI that I love

and I I see it. So many most of the days I am engaged but not physically in the office before 10:00.

No point in sitting in a traffic and and stuff like that. People are have gone on and started doing what they're supposed to do. There are some minor fires and there are some minor pets in the back and and rest of the life is but I know exactly

that if I go here there'll be fire and if I go here there'll be uh some cheers and joy of success.

But do your metrics that you need make it to that 8:45 meeting? there's someone keyed into a spreadsheet somewhere or

uh there is now the the simple notes in certain format that is taken like this is the plan for the day and then

twice a week there are the the project meetings they call it

in that

the whole idea is that if there's one meeting on Monday so like let's only talk about what's happening between now

and Thursday morning we don't want to go beyond that

right so let's just talk about that and then that is all documented and triggers and actions are given

y

even if I just skim through that then I very very clearly knows what is happening and if I need to get involved or not

okay but if if that's happening how come it's not working for you how come it's not giving you what you need like what part is missing

somebody needs to drive that

and at times

that's that influencer person right that's what they should be driving

and and that's the saying that you have a 2IC

y

to be let's say and then you have a project delivery uh manager

and if the 2 IC is missing in action someday then there are a lot of like

oh I'll find out when that person comes on I'll find out when that

when there are a lot of hanging

uh open things then

that starts to kind of annoy me it's like what's the point of the meeting? But the meeting was about it's like

let's find out we still don't have answers to these questions

cuz what that's a symptom of is um whoever's key in those metrics isn't emotionally involved enough

just doesn't care enough.

So how do you get the whole I mean I I have a a team of high performers.

Yeah,

they're amazing. And like my um we tried a few sales individuals in in certain matrixes but then

the emerging tech um individual told me like we don't really really need a salesperson salesperson. If you get a lead gen

there is nobody

better than you who can explain and then get get emotionally involved.

Y

he get gets it right.

How do you get everybody else emotionally involved? because some people

are there for money that there's a job

for the next

that's the core competency of a co right like that's what you got to figure out and the only way I've seen that happen um effectively is so let's say you're having daily standups you'll have 15 minutes with just your direct reports

but you'll go through the metrics um so if let's just say in sales right I've got to get I don't know 10 customers 12 customers a year one a month to do that I've got to do I don't know 20 meetings per month and I have to do 100 phone calls per month, for example. So, you break that down to every day I've got to do 10 phone calls, one meeting, got to sign up a customer once a month. So, what you want in that respect is you want the sales guy to rock up to that daily meeting and say, "Yesterday, I did 12 phone calls, but I didn't get enough meetings and I didn't do this." And you want them to feel the pain of failure

and the pleasure of success. They've got to feel like they're letting their buddies down.

Fair enough.

Um or they've got to feel like, "Oh my god, I've just did such an amazing job. I did 20 meetings yesterday. You had 100 phone calls and I got two sales. I had to do 12 this year, but we're a month in. I've already got four sales in. Aren't I just a rockstar? And you you should celebrate that rockstar or let that person when they're failing. You don't have to do it. They'll feel it themselves feel publicly humiliated for not succeeding.

So in in that sense, this exactly the matrix is and then

it's not anybody humiliation that individual, but they they I can They need to and then they were feeling the pain.

Um,

give you an example. We have a long sales cycle from the first phone call to signing the dotted line

could be two months or two years, right?

Makes sense. It makes sense. It's hardware, right? That's long. Yeah.

Because it's a big infra. Yeah.

And then there were some people who left saying that look, it's been 8 months.

I haven't done wonders. M

I'm sure that I can't take it anymore. It's not that I don't like it. I, you know, with a heavy heart, I need to go where I can win more.

Yeah,

fair enough.

Um, I think it was just doing okay and doing doing the industry and things like that. But there are, you know, you when you make it very obvious that

it's true, you're not winning. But that's when you only count winning as like that one deal a month you need to sign up. You need a consider number of meetings like you know whatever whatever the up upstream actions are that's part of the winning

and that is exactly what you know I I I wanted to retain the talent

and I try to explain that individual that look it's in my book.

Was that their first sales job?

No.

Okay. So so so they know how the game plays. People come from the different different industry like sometimes you know when you knock on a door and selling toothbrush is very yeah just on the same day. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh so they once you you know um like real estate business two two months turn around it's done or moved on to another agent type of thing.

And when you come to that it's like okay you know you build and tell the story and blah blah and maybe year later you got a million dollar contract.

Mhm.

It's very different.

Yeah. And um it's like in my books these are the the wins that you have you you have done and look at this you know you're doing the right thing that the customer is asking questions and

they want to talk to you rather than talk to me which is a big win blah blah

so what I'm not telling you that you haven't brought in the business

I know you haven't

and there's a reason for it because everything takes time it's like I use a pizza analogy that if you put a pizza on one end Yeah,

it's going to take time. But if you top load enough,

then it's going to get to a point where now you suddenly start to until then you can't crank up the temperature. You can't fast track it. Either you get a burn pizza or or or a half baked. You don't want to do that. So this is the progression

of the time.

This is the also the reason that

but some people are not made for enterprise sales. They're not made for a long sales cycle.

They're not. Some people are some people aren't

and I think a lot of times what happens is that you know as you know mostly the sales is there is a retainer and then there's an enterprise sales that you get bigger chunk when when the close

um a lot of people are just not not patient enough for the long run

and um I feel that and that is the the the reason the way the business is structured that and I I think in this industry mobility deals with a lot of councils and and stuff.

You don't really need a saleserson salesperson.

You could have a tender writer. You could have the some prep or legen

but you know individuals like CEO or the the commercial manager and the

they're emotionally as you said tied to the success.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

And which means the growth of the business is also their growth but not direct material contribution.

Y

um so what I've done is I've done bit of

just on that cuz what I found I think you get getting this is um so succeed in sales in larger complex enterprises you almost need this scaffolding

like you need a marketing person a pre-sales person a tender writer a deep product expert someone who's got great connection to the organization. You need like half a dozen people to come together

to succeed.

Yeah. And and that's uh where that you know based on the CRM we have now each column has a name.

Yeah.

Uh or two.

Yep. And that has been working like a charm like okay you know we thought

customers don't want to see different faces but then they don't really mind

because the face is also them changing right because the decision making layer

and there's six people on the client side anyway right so

exactly so that that

uh the myth was broken and now they're absolutely fine.

Yep. Um end of the day uh what what um it's a game money game.

We don't want to be one thing we realized is that you cannot be um a known known as a Toyota level tier company but selling at a Mercedes BMW price tag. Uh or even if you drop to the

Yeah.

MG Yep. Zaker level

uh there are more there's a bigger market of that tier

than higher or lower

y

and what we have prepared is to uh prepare our solution to be the Toyota

y

in last 6 months a lot of time and energy and resource has been put that

is this is the pricing and this is the performance. Yeah.

But now the look and feel

is like Lexus.

Y

So when you sit inside even if you look at the proposal document

is so much more professionally done than what it was year ago.

Y

um simple simple changes the way the the equipments look and feel.

Yeah. It's like, oh, you know, if I'm getting this for the price tag,

and if this is the same brand what it what it has been,

yeah,

great. I'll take it.

Um, I don't want to pay the BMW price

yet.

Yeah.

But then I'll buy it at the same price, but I will be okay to pay a little bit of maintenance and a warranty money.

Totally. That makes sense. Okay, we should probably start wrapping up. I mean, how do you think we went with solving that problem? How do I introduce new payment tech to my clients? How do how close do you reckon we got to the to a good solution?

Yeah, I think it's it's a it's a very um uh very engaging conversation. Sometimes I've been to the podcast and and uh

I like the style that there is, you know, the the beginning, middle, and end. And the end we got to that like this is this is how it is. And

do you think we've got the right solution?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think so. So I mean time will tell once we do it.

Come in two years time. Come in two years time.

Yeah. But I I really like it. I I think you you have a very sharp niche to understand and and and

and distill

uh the facts down to

that pain point. Yeah.

Uh but at times, you know, when you're like me busy in a day-to-day activity,

you don't see that that dark zoomed in, right? Yeah. Still zoomed in. So this is this is all has been great to zoom out and look at this thing. Sometimes it comes as a validation that I didn't want to know

that this is the problem. I knew this was a problem but now you're telling me it's like I have to now agree and do something.

Right.

Very much so. Very much so. No, this is great.

Perfect. I mean final question from my side. Look, a question that I'd like to ask right at the end. I mean what's what's something that you always knew to be true that you've since found out that isn't true? Uh, that's a tricky one. Um, I always thought that it's always about the price tag. M

and uh I myself my own own personal life have

realized that I have walked into the store.

Mhm.

And I have now

uh I needed I I've purchased things and paid for it

without looking at the price tag because I have

a reason associated to that. It's like if I do this, this is how it's going to complement

why I need this. It's no longer emotional buy.

I am commemorating something or this there's a reason behind it.

And every customer uh that I also speak to.

Um yes, everybody wants to first likes and and they want to win and it's like okay, you know, if you agree to this and they're like, oh, look, you know, I love what I bought. M

um and I also got him to reduce 50 bucks or something like that.

That's okay. But they nobody comes up and then and and makes it about

the price only.

Yeah.

You don't even want those customers where they don't want to know the tech and it's never about the price. So I always thought that if you drop the price to non-compatible competible like nobody can come anywhere close

um it's it's um you know like somebody said that you if you do something for everybody

or you do everything for someone they have a two different markets. Yep. So it's up to you which one do you want to be

and I think what I've learned here is that

most of my c our customers

it's never about the price. Yes, it's a driving force.

Nobody's going to put $150,000

if there is a $70,000 solution on the table. But when it gets to give or take 20% even,

they are so focused on like I want something that really solves my problem.

I think what you're saying it's like issue number one. It's on the list, but it's not the number one.

No. Yeah.

Yeah. And I always thought it's always about the money. Um when people wants to talk to me it's always about

what can you do

um one out of 20 conversation it starts there but mostly it's

they want to be have that relationship and the confidence it's not always about money so those who are trying to reduce the cost so they can sell it the cheapest possible

I think people will willing to pay for the quality and the relationship.

Totally. Makes sense. Awesome. Thank you very much. Thanks for having Thank you guys.

Absolutely pleasure. Very nice here.

Great. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you do want to be a guest, make sure you hit me up and do follow me on socials and make sure you